• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Paul's teachings.

arhys

Member
It seems to be clear that Paul was not cooperating with Jesus' salvation.

Do remember that the original Apostles were leery of allowing Paul into their circle because he was a Pharisee and at least partially enabled the martyrdom of Stephen. If he had been responsible for any further discord at all, or if his teachings were unorthodox or heretical, he would not only have been booted out of the group but very severely excoriated in all Christian literature.

This type of attitude is popular among "Christians" who think believers have gone astray because Paul was a big meany-head to homosexuals and other protected groups and Jesus didn't happen to say anything on the matter. Is that you?
 

Meshak

Active Member
This type of attitude is popular among "Christians" who think believers have gone astray because Paul was a big meany-head to homosexuals and other protected groups and Jesus didn't happen to say anything on the matter. Is that you?

Nope, I am not one of them. I push to be obedient to Jesus and obedience to Jesus is essential for salvation.

So I am outcast of all organizational Christian community because they all follow Paul's instruction for their organization.

It seems their Lord is Paul, not Jesus.

And Jesus does not condone homosexual sex either.
 

Meshak

Active Member
the Isrealites had left Gods law, they were disobedient to God. Isaiah was telling them that the works of law they were performing, were useless to them....like filthy rags you throw away. 'Works of Mosaic Law'....do you know what these were?



and how did Paul use it in his letter... what is the context, who is he speaking to and why???

You are reasoning to justify all Paul's teachings. So we cannot communicate. Paul is not my Lord, Jesus is.
 

Meshak

Active Member
and Jesus commissioned Paul to be an apostle to the nations. If you reject Paul, you reject Jesus.

Nope, Paul was used to when they did not have Jesus' word written. We dont need Paul's teachings any more. We have Jesus' direct teachings.

Jesus is my Lord, not Paul.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Nope, Paul was used to when they did not have Jesus' word written. We dont need Paul's teachings any more. We have Jesus' direct teachings.

Jesus is my Lord, not Paul.

sorry, i cant comprehend this.
 

Meshak

Active Member
sorry, i cant comprehend this.

I have been evangelist for several years, I have been using Jesus' word to spread Jesus, I dont even use Paul's teachings at all. I did not even realize how useless Paul's teachings are to evangelize until recently.

Christianity is all about following Jesus' teachings. Organizations are making Gospel complicated than actually is.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Do remember that the original Apostles were leery of allowing Paul into their circle because he was a Pharisee and at least partially enabled the martyrdom of Stephen. If he had been responsible for any further discord at all, or if his teachings were unorthodox or heretical, he would not only have been booted out of the group but very severely excoriated in all Christian literature.

This type of attitude is popular among "Christians" who think believers have gone astray because Paul was a big meany-head to homosexuals and other protected groups and Jesus didn't happen to say anything on the matter. Is that you?

Paul may have been severely excoriated in such literature as the "Clementine Homilies", written by Nazarene Jewish Christian groups.

The ones who decided if Paul was heretical who wrote "Christian literature" or not lived long after the initial epistles were written. We simply don't know if the account in Acts is true, or as some scholars suggest, an attempt to reconcile Jewish and anti-Judaizing Christian groups.
 

Shermana

Heretic
the Isrealites had left Gods law, they were disobedient to God. Isaiah was telling them that the works of law they were performing, were useless to them....like filthy rags you throw away. 'Works of Mosaic Law'....do you know what these were?



and how did Paul use it in his letter... what is the context, who is he speaking to and why???

The oft-misquoted "Filthy rags" concept had nothing to do with the Law not working for them, what it meant was that their level of righteousness was like filthy rags, it's amazing how often Chapter 64 is cherry picked competely devoid of its actual context. He's talking about how sinful and lawless they had been, not that the law was useless to them. You seem to contradict yourself, you say that they had abandoned God's law (which they had, which was the point of Isaiah trying to bring them back), then you say the works of the Law they were performing was useless. Which one is it?

1Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down,
that the mountains would tremble before you!
2As when fire sets twigs ablaze
and causes water to boil,
come down to make your name known to your enemies
and cause the nations to quake before you!
3For when you did awesome things that we did not expect,
you came down, and the mountains trembled before you.
4Since ancient times no one has heard,
no ear has perceived,
no eye has seen any God besides you,
who acts on behalf of those who wait for him.
5You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
But when we continued to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved?
6All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
7No one calls on your name
or strives to lay hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us
and made us waste away because of our sins.
8Yet, O Lord, you are our Father.
We are the clay, you are the potter;
we are all the work of your hand.
9Do not be angry beyond measure, O Lord;
do not remember our sins forever.
Oh, look upon us, we pray,
for we are all your people.
10Your sacred cities have become a desert;
even Zion is a desert, Jerusalem a desolation.
11Our holy and glorious temple, where our fathers praised you,
has been burned with fire,
and all that we treasured lies in ruins.
12After all this, O Lord, will you hold yourself back?
Will you keep silent and punish us beyond measure?




As you can see, the filthy rags is in reference to how lawless they had become, not that their Lawful behavior was like filthy rags as myriads change the context to.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
The oft-misquoted "Filthy rags" concept had nothing to do with the Law not working for them, what it meant was that their level of righteousness was like filthy rags, it's amazing how often Chapter 64 is cherry picked competely devoid of its actual context. He's talking about how sinful and lawless they had been, not that the law was useless to them. You seem to contradict yourself, you say that they had abandoned God's law (which they had, which was the point of Isaiah trying to bring them back), then you say the works of the Law they were performing was useless. Which one is it?

Well, firstly, i didnt say the law was not working for them...i said they had left the law!
They were disobeying parts of the law, while still offering their sacrifices at the temple and still participating in the festivals....what they were doing was described by other prophets too. They were permitting false prophets to exist, false forms of worship, injustices etc etc

They were worshiping false gods:
Eze 6:3 And you must say, ‘O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah: This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said to the mountains and to the hills, to the streambeds and to the valleys: “Here I am! I am bringing upon YOU a sword, and I shall certainly destroy YOUR high places. 4 And YOUR altars must be made desolate and YOUR incense stands must be broken, and I will cause YOUR slain ones to fall before YOUR dungy idols. 5 And I will put the carcasses of the sons of Israel before their dungy idols, and I will scatter YOUR bones all around YOUR altars

Malachi 3:5 “And I will come near to YOU people for the judgment, and I will become a speedy witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against those swearing falsely, and against those acting fraudulently with the wages of a wage worker, with [the] widow and with [the] fatherless boy, and those turning away the alien resident, while they have not feared me,” Jehovah of armies has said


Malachi also opens with the strong denunciation of the priests serving at the temple...
6 “‘A son, for his part, honors a father; and a servant, his grand master. So if I am a father, where is the honor to me? And if I am a grand master, where is the fear of me?’ Jehovah of armies has said to YOU, O priests who are despising my name.
“‘And YOU have said: “In what way have we despised your name?”’
7 “‘[By] presenting upon my altar polluted bread.’

“‘And YOU have said: “In what way have we polluted you?”’
“‘By YOUR saying: “The table of Jehovah is something to be despised.” 8 And when YOU present a blind [animal] for sacrificing: “It is nothing bad.” And when YOU present a lame [animal] or a sick one: “It is nothing bad.”’”
“Bring it near, please, to your governor. Will he find pleasure in you, or will he receive you kindly?” Jehovah of armies has said.


God was not pleased with their worship because it was not in line with the law....Moses said the animals must be 'sound'...but they were presenting lame and sick animals.
So adhereing to the mosaic law requires much more then perfunctory services...its as God said to Isaiah:

Isaiah 29:13 And Jehovah says: “For the reason that this people have come near with their mouth, and they have glorified me merely with their lips, and they have removed their heart itself far away from me...

I'll finish with this passage which clearly shows that performing services of the mosaic law is not enough...

Isaiah 1:11 “Of what benefit to me is the multitude of YOUR sacrifices?” says Jehovah. “I have had enough of whole burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed animals; and in the blood of young bulls and male lambs and he-goats I have taken no delight. 12 When YOU people keep coming in to see my face, who is it that has required this from YOUR hand, to trample my courtyards? 13 Stop bringing in any more valueless grain offerings. Incense—it is something detestable to me. New moon and sabbath, the calling of a convention—I cannot put up with the [use of] uncanny power along with the solemn assembly. 14 YOUR new moons and YOUR festal seasons my soul has hated. To me they have become a burden; I have become tired of bearing [them]. 15 And when YOU spread out YOUR palms, I hide my eyes from YOU. Even though YOU make many prayers, I am not listening; with bloodshed YOUR very hands have become filled.

The parts of the law that the people were neglecting were what Jesus called the 'weightier matters of the law' namely love & justice. The Isrealites were not upholding the righteousness of the law and for that reason, the offerings and sacrifices were not acceptable to God.....he sent nations against them and allowed them to die by the sword for these reasons.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Nope, you are not interested in what I have to say. All you are doing is just being argumentative, imo.

I do not feed trolls.

good day.
I'm not a troll (and argument by ad hominem might just be against forum rules) and what you offered for food had very little or nothing to do with my question. The basis of a debate, and this is a debate forum is it not, is an argument. Your argument is full of holes. You're more than welcome to post inadequate ideas but I will point out their inadequacies.
 
Last edited:

Shermana

Heretic
I did not even realize how useless Paul's teachings are to evangelize until recently.

Christianity is all about following Jesus' teachings. Organizations are making Gospel complicated than actually is.

At least we agree on this one.
 

jtartar

Well-Known Member
Jesus got away with OT rituals like sacrificial system when He died on the cross.

Yet, Paul seems to reestablished many of legalism all over.

And Paul didnt seem to believe obeying Jesus' teachings and commandment will save us. It is against Jesus' word of "if you love Me, keep my commandments".

Jesus emphasized how important to be obedient to His teachings and commands.

It seems to be clear that Paul was not cooperating with Jesus' salvation.

PS, I am Jesus' follower and His servant to be clear. Jesus is my Lord.

Meshak,
Allow me to reason a little with you. Would God allow Paul to write over half of the Books of the Greek Scriptures, and would Paul have been the foremost preacher of the Good News of the Kingdom, 1Cor 15:7-10, Acts 19:11-17. Paul constantly extolled the praises of Jesus, his lord.
There is not even a tidbit of a difference between Paul's teaching and Jesus', except ONE VERY IMPORTANT THING, Jesus was born a Jew, so he was required to obey the Law of Moses, Gal 4:4-7.
One of the main reasons that Jesus came to earth was to remove the Mosaic Law, because it condemned to death all who were under it, because no one could obey that law perfectly, Acts 15:10,11, James 2:10, Gal 3:10-14, Rom 3:20, 7:6, 8:2,3, 2Cor 3:6,7,9, Col 2:13,14, 17.
The Mosaic Law Covenant could not ever make anyone perfect, so Jesus came to earth to institute The New Covenant, Luke 22:19,20, 2Cor 3:6, Jere 31:31-34, Heb 7:11,12, 18,19, 8:6-13, hEB 10:10-18.
Just like any father, can you imagine the heartache that Jehovah God went through, when he allowed man to kill His son for us?? Remember Jesus had been with his Father for untold millions of years. God loved His son like no other, John 3:16, Rom 5:5-10.
Many have called John 3:16, The Gospel in Miniature!!!
 

Meshak

Active Member
Meshak,
Allow me to reason a little with you. Would God allow Paul to write over half of the Books of the Greek Scriptures,

NT is canonized by men. It is strange that they did not put much of Jesus' word, and put Paul's teaching so many.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
NT is canonized by men. It is strange that they did not put much of Jesus' word, and put Paul's teaching so many.
Not so strange. We have a lot more material from Paul than we do from Jesus. Wonder why that is?...
 

Meshak

Active Member
they are the teachers of Jesus words.

The NT IS Jesus teachings.

Paul established the ritualistic churches. I dont believe he got that from Jesus.

The organizations love Paul's teachings because without his teachings they cannot control their organization. It is all about controlling.
 
Top