Paycheck to Paycheck

[Akivah]

There are more people dying in the streets of this country than we realize. And if the republicans continue to gut and eliminate social services, as they certainly intend to, it will get a lot worse. All you have to do is look at how people live and die in countries where there are no effective social services. And you will see our own future, if we continue to allow greed, political corruption, and this "every-man-for-himself" economic philosophy to control our collective well-being.

So there are no poor people when Democrats are in power?

 

[PureX]

Many homeless people have mental disorders.

Some actually choose to be homeless.

And there are those that are forced to be homeless, but that doesn't prove how and why they became homeless. We have to break down every aspect of their lives and history to fully understand it. It's deceiving to just blame it on the economy and expectations of the government.

The bottom line is that it is the responsibility of government to serve the well-being of the people that established it to do so. And it is the purpose of commerce to serve the well-being of the people that engage in it. And it is illogical for a people to maintain and comply with a government that acts antithetically to their well-being. Just as it is likewise illogical for a people to continue to engage in an economic system that seeks to exploit and abuse the many for the gross enrichment of a few. And blaming the victims of these irrational and toxic forms of government and commerce does not negate the irrationality or the damage done by allowing these anti-social systems to continue.

 

[suncowiam]

The bottom line is that it is the responsibility of government to serve the well-being of the people that established it to do so. And it is the purpose of commerce to serve the well-being of the people that engage in it. And it is illogical for a people to maintain and comply with a government that acts antithetically to their well-being. Just as it is likewise illogical for a people to continue to engage in an economic system that seeks to exploit and abuse the many for the gross enrichment of a few. And blaming the victims of these irrational and toxic forms of government and commerce does not negate the irrationality or the damage done by allowing these anti-social systems to continue.

So, it's never the fault of the individual? Is that logical?

 

[Akivah]

Very often, those "unsustainable lifestyles" are not the fault of those living them, either. They happen because of ignorance, and disease, and abuse, and neglect. Think about it; do you really believe that anyone consciously CHOOSES to become a drunk, a drug addict, hopelessly unemployable, willfully ignorant, life-losers? So how did they get that way?

They got that way because they missed whatever, if any, opportunities they had to become something different. And in our culture, those opportunities are now only being offered to fewer and fewer people. And the rest are just being ignored, and blamed for their own loss.

Great, just great, so you wanna absolve anyone of any personal responsibility whatsoever. "It's not my fault judge, its my genetics!"

It is total bunk to say that drinking alcohol, consuming drugs, or remaining willfully ignorant is not a personal choice. Alcoholics can choose to not have a drink, stoners can choose to not light up a joint, and ignorant people can get training to improve themselves. Almost anyone can work and sacrifice to improve themselves.

 

[Akivah]

And it takes luck. You can have all the will power, planning and sacrifice but one bad illness or disaster in the house or car and you are back to in debt.

Which is pretty much the reason to not be PtP. Stuff happens, if you've got savings, then you have a better chance of dealing with it without being wiped out.

 

[PureX]

Great, just great, so you wanna absolve anyone of any personal responsibility whatsoever. "It's not my fault judge, its my genetics!"

It is total bunk to say that drinking alcohol, consuming drugs, or remaining willfully ignorant is not a personal choice. Alcoholics can choose to not have a drink, stoners can choose to not light up a joint, and ignorant people can get training to improve themselves. Almost anyone can work and sacrifice to improve themselves.

Presuming the most negative and extreme scenarios does not help your argument (if you have one), nor does it serve the conversation. Perhaps if you could drop the wild extremism, a reasonable discussion could occur.

As to enforcing "personal responsibility", who do you propose we put in charge of that department? And what criteria do you propose they use to determine when one of us has become "personally irresponsible"? Because there are those among us that want their religion to make decisions like these, and carry them out, and there are those among us that would be panic-stricken by that eventuality. Also, how do you propose we punish people for their irresponsibility? We already imprison more of our own citizens than nearly every other nation on the planet, and yet we remain as "irresponsible" as people anywhere else on Earth. Even more-so, it could be argued. So how far do we go to force our fellow citizens to live up to our requirements for responsible behavior (once our moral high-priests have determined what they are)?

 

[Akivah]

The numbers don't jibe. How can only 40% of high school graduates and 20% of college graduates combine to form 80% of Americans?

Because different pools are used. You can't simply add percentages of differing statements and expect it to equal 100%.

I was unable to find the actual survey online, but I did find an article that went into it in more detail.
Living Paycheck to Paycheck is a Way of Life for Majority of U.S. Workers, According to New CareerBuilder Survey

The national survey, which was conducted online by Harris Poll on behalf of CareerBuilder from May 24 to June 16, 2017, included representative samples of 2,369 full-time employers and 3,462 full-time U.S. workers across industries and company sizes in the private sector.

78% of U.S. workers live paycheck to paycheck to make ends meet.
10% of workers making $100,000+ live paycheck to paycheck.
25% of workers do not set aside any savings each month.
28% of workers making $50,000-$99,999 live paycheck to
51% of workers making less than $50,000 live paycheck to paycheck.

 

[metis]

BTW, a figure from the Kaiser Family Foundation that's about 10 years old now had it that 70-80% of all personal bankruptcies had medical expenses as being at least one major factor.

 

[bobhikes]

Which is pretty much the reason to not be PtP. Stuff happens, if you've got savings, has a better chance of dealing with it without being wiped out.

So basically live with Mom and Dad until you have 3 months savings no debt a down payment for a house or apartment and the first months rent. If you come from a rich family or got a scholarship that should be no problem, otherwise 10 years later.

 

[PureX]

So, it's never the fault of the individual? Is that logical?

I don't see how who's fault it is, matters. It's the purpose of the government to serve the well-being of the people that established it to govern them. And it's the purpose of the commercial system to serve the well-being of the people engaged in it. The "guilt" or "innocence" of the people is not the issue. The issue is the true purpose and functionality of the systems we employ to further our individual and collective well-being.

Wouldn't you agree?

And our current system of government has become totally corrupted by an economic system that has encouraged and rewarded a few very clever, greedy, people by enabling them to amass huge piles of wealth, and who are using that wealth to 'rig the system' to garner even more. And these people will never get enough, so they will not stop this greed and corruption even when it destroys their own country and their world.

We are insane to allow them to continue. And yet we are doing exactly that. Meanwhile, your concern is assessing the personal irresponsibility of the poor and the sick? How does this make any sense?

 

[Akivah]

It's a bit disconcerting to read that many people posting here, don't think that building wealth is possible for anyone. However, it isn't the US government's job to provide a living for anyone. There are many people that have sacrificed and lifted themselves out of debt. Sure there is some luck, but there is way more planning, work, and sacrifice.

According to the survey, 68% don't stick to a clearly defined budget. People should have more concern and care about their financial well being. This lack of planning shows in that 26% don't save anything at all and 15% only save up to $50 per month.

The drive to stay impoverished also shows in the survey's results of what people said they'd never give up, no matter their finances:
54% would never give up their internet connection, 53% wouldn't give up their mobile device, 19% wouldn't give up dining out, and 11% wouldn't give up alcohol.

I believe that most people have the choice to live as they want, but the opportunity to better themselves always exists in the USA.

 

[Akivah]

Presuming the most negative and extreme scenarios does not help your argument (if you have one), nor does it serve the conversation. Perhaps if you could drop the wild extremism, a reasonable discussion could occur.

They were your scenarios. Perhaps you could come with something that meets your own requirements.

 

[PureX]

BTW, a figure from the Kaiser Family Foundation that's about 10 years old now had it that 70-80% of all personal bankruptcies had medical expenses as being at least one major factor.

And the rest were caused by divorce. Both factors that are very difficult to blame on the victims.

 

[metis]

It's a bit disconcerting to read that many people posting here, don't think that building wealth is possible for anyone.

It simply is not possible for everyone because not everyone is in a position to succeed, which can be attributed to various factors as has been mentioned. In a free-market economy there will be winners but there also will be losers.

I believe that most people have the choice to live as they want, but the opportunity to better themselves always exists in the USA.

Agreed.

 

[Akivah]

As to enforcing "personal responsibility", who do you propose we put in charge of that department?

Who said anything about enforcing personal responsibility? We already have it. It sounds like you want to take it away.

 

[metis]

And the rest were caused by divorce. Both factors that are very difficult to blame on the victims.

Yes, and I have known some people who have been decimated by a divorce with the majority being women whose husbands had had affairs and either left them. Two of my wife's cousins, for example, whereas their husbands ran off with someone they met on the internet.

 

[Koldo]

It's a bit disconcerting to read that many people posting here, don't think that building wealth is possible for anyone. However, it isn't the US government's job to provide a living for anyone. There are many people that have sacrificed and lifted themselves out of debt. Sure there is some luck, but there is way more planning, work, and sacrifice.

According to the survey, 68% don't stick to a clearly defined budget. People should have more concern and care about their financial well being. This lack of planning shows in that 26% don't save anything at all and 15% only save up to $50 per month.

The drive to stay impoverished also shows in the survey's results of what people said they'd never give up, no matter their finances:
54% would never give up their internet connection, 53% wouldn't give up their mobile device, 19% wouldn't give up dining out, and 11% wouldn't give up alcohol.

I believe that most people have the choice to live as they want, but the opportunity to better themselves always exists in the USA.

Many people can't afford saving. They just don't have that kind of money.
Mobile devices, internet connection, alcohol and even dining out can be cheap. And when they are, spending on them won't make a difference.

 

[Akivah]

So basically live with Mom and Dad until you have 3 months savings no debt a down payment for a house or apartment and the first months rent. If you come from a rich family or got a scholarship that should be no problem, otherwise 10 years later.

This is a new scenario from your original post. So now you're talking about how to purchase a house? Sure, accumulating savings is the way to get a down payment. But too many people purchase more house than they can afford. A general rule for affordability is a buyer’s mortgage, taxes and insurance combined should not exceed 25 to 28 percent of his or her monthly income.

 

[Akivah]

And the rest were caused by divorce. Both factors that are very difficult to blame on the victims.

Divorce is not the responsibility of the spouses??? What planet do you live on?

 

[Koldo]

This is a new scenario from your original post. So now you're talking about how to purchase a house? Sure, accumulating savings is the way to get a down payment. But too many people purchase more house than they can afford. A general rule for affordability is a buyer’s mortgage, taxes and insurance combined should not exceed 25 to 28 percent of his or her monthly income.

This highlights the most important part: What matters the most is not how much you save ( as long as you don't go into debt ), it is how much you earn.