Paying money to church pastors and musicians

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A pastor is considered a full time ministry in most churches and so is a song leader. However musicians are "weekend warriors" so to speak. They have full time jobs and just play for the church on Sunday. They do it for the love of the Lord, just like pastors but they aren't considered permanent full time jobs, they are volunteers and serving the church by using their gifts.

Depends on the musician.

If you find someone who wants to play your church's organ for free for three services in a row every Sunday and rehearsals during the week, I don't think anyone's going to object. But the question is whether you should feel free to hire someone when the organ would be sitting quiet otherwise.

Musical training isn't cheap in terms of money or effort. Should you expect someone to devote their lives to music for free so you can have nice music in church?

Should volunteers at soup kitchens get paid? Maybe but that is not why they are there.

If you don't have enough volunteers at your soup kitchen, would it be wrong to offer an honorarium to your volunteers in order to attract more?

Matthew 10:7 As YOU go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.’ 8 Cure sick people, raise up dead persons, make lepers clean, expel demons. YOU received free, give free. 9 Do not procure gold or silver or copper for YOUR girdle purses

But they didn't "receive free". Not in most cases, anyhow. My wife's church's organist trained for decades and has a degree (a Masters, IIRC) in Music Performance. That kind of training has a major cost.

Heck... just having an instrument to practice on is a major cost in itself. From what I hear, most places with an organ won't let beginners play it for free unless they really like the person.

 

[gnomon]

It still baffles me that churches don't have to pay taxes. Pastors make "income" and their work isn't voluntary. Appointments are made, services are done at designated times etc.

Churches are not 100% tax exempt. It's primarily the property tax of the land the church is on and any land owned that is not used for revenue purposes as well as the direct contributions to the church, e.g. tithes, that are not taxed.

Payroll taxes, income taxes of the staff including the pastors, property tax on land that is rented out to the public for use and so on are taxed. What exactly can vary from State to State since the state laws are different regarding property and income taxes.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Something else to consider: many church musicians don't even profess the faith of a particular church. They are there because they want to, and because of the decent pay.

 

[sojourner]

oh yes the music behind worship
it's contrived and used as an underscore to evoke emotion....

yes musicians should get paid for their services...

And emotion shouldn't be evoked in a holistic endeavor because...

 

[sojourner]

Matthew 10:7 As YOU go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.’ 8 Cure sick people, raise up dead persons, make lepers clean, expel demons. YOU received free, give free. 9 Do not procure gold or silver or copper for YOUR girdle purses

Typical response, but completely not germane.

 

[waitasec]

And emotion shouldn't be evoked in a holistic endeavor because...

it is calculating...it's not honest...music evokes emotion especially in that state of mind.
look, i have partaken in the art of worship music...
the long dynamic swells are my favorite especially when the musical director is watching the pastor leading the congregation in worship and turns to the the director to tell the musicians to keep it going in order to support the suggestions the pastor is leading the congregation with...and this happens right before he leads the congregation in prayer. it's taking advantage of the human psychology as a tool to stir up emotion in order for his congregation to buy into whatever he's selling...

 

[waitasec]

i have my theory of why worship service exists in the 1st place...

i think it is to relive what was experienced in acts chapter 2...

it's just a group of people chasing the dragon
just like any other junkie ...

 

[MurphtheSurf]

And yet Jesus had people providing for him out of their own means. Luke 8:1-3

Jesus didn't pass a plate around as he taught. Jesus didn't own a home, let alone an opulent mansion. Jesus didn't have a fleet of jet planes or anything as equally luxurious for his times.
The people were only extending hospitality, not wealth.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Jesus didn't pass a plate around as he taught. Jesus didn't own a home, let alone an opulent mansion. Jesus didn't have a fleet of jet planes or anything as equally luxurious for his times.
The people were only extending hospitality, not wealth.

Wealth is a medium of exchange that allows one to purchase things like items of hospitality.

And I think that 1 Corinthians 9 speaks to the issue of wealth more directly:

7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink the milk? 8 Do I say this merely on human authority? Doesn’t the Law say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.”[b] Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10 Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us, because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more?

 

[BruceDLimber]

As to the Baha'i Faith, not only do we have no clergy or hierarchy whatever, but most musicians perform for free at Baha'i events; and some in fact pay thousands of dollars to participate in international choir tours!

I have done so myself, have been on eight such tours, and would have been on more had my work schedule permitted.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As to the Baha'i Faith, not only do we have no clergy or hierarchy whatever, but most musicians perform for free at Baha'i events; and some in fact pay thousands of dollars to participate in international choir tours!

I have done so myself, have been on eight such tours, and would have been on more had my work schedule permitted.

You said that "most" musicians perform free. Does this mean that some are paid?

What happens when a Baha'i congregation can't find musicians to perform at their services for free? Would they consider hiring someone, or would they just go without music?

 

[sojourner]

it is calculating...it's not honest...music evokes emotion especially in that state of mind.
look, i have partaken in the art of worship music...
the long dynamic swells are my favorite especially when the musical director is watching the pastor leading the congregation in worship and turns to the the director to tell the musicians to keep it going in order to support the suggestions the pastor is leading the congregation with...and this happens right before he leads the congregation in prayer. it's taking advantage of the human psychology as a tool to stir up emotion in order for his congregation to buy into whatever he's selling...

Manipulation is dishonest, and should never be used in worship. However, presenting a work of art for the consideration of the audience, and allowing them to make what they will of it, is not manipulation. That's what art does!
I've been professionally involved in church music for 33 years. I've seen a lot of fine, honest artwork, and a lot of cheap claptrap. IMO, music should never be used as a "backdrop" for what the minister is doing or saying. Too easy to become manipulative claptrap. The music is the music and the spoken word is the spoken word, and the two should not mix.

Evoking emotion is not the same as manipulating a desired response. Music in worship should make us wonder -- should open our minds to greater possibilities -- should move us, just not in a particular direction.

 

[sojourner]

i have my theory of why worship service exists in the 1st place...

i think it is to relive what was experienced in acts chapter 2...

it's just a group of people chasing the dragon
just like any other junkie ...

Worship exists for the purpose of making space for God's transformation to take place in the assembled people.

 

[Agnostic75]

As to the Baha'i Faith, not only do we have no clergy or hierarchy whatever, but most musicians perform for free at Baha'i events; and some in fact pay thousands of dollars to participate in international choir tours!


I have done so myself, have been on eight such tours, and would have been on more had my work schedule permitted.

Do all members of the Baha'i church who work for the church worldwide part-time or full-time work for free, including accountants, office personnel, gardeners, painters, cooks, and carpenters?

Please make a post in my new thread that is titled 'The Baha'i religion.'

 

[waitasec]

Manipulation is dishonest, and should never be used in worship. However, presenting a work of art for the consideration of the audience, and allowing them to make what they will of it, is not manipulation. That's what art does!

well then the focus isn't about worship it's about appreciating an art form

I've been professionally involved in church music for 33 years. I've seen a lot of fine, honest artwork, and a lot of cheap claptrap. IMO, music should never be used as a "backdrop" for what the minister is doing or saying. Too easy to become manipulative claptrap. The music is the music and the spoken word is the spoken word, and the two should not mix.

i just had a flash back of my church days, when at the end of the sermon it was time to ask if anyone in the congregation wants to commit their lives to jesus or recommit it to stand up as hopeful music was always in the backdrop...never heard any dissonant chords mind you..but hopeful sounding scales...it never failed...
it's just like watching a movie..take out the music and the vibe is not supported and left to ones imagination...which is what i think worship should be...left to ones imagination, not this hollywood type manipulation.
frankly i've been to a lot of churches in my day and this was pretty much standard, especially in the bigger ones...
the smaller churches, if they had musicians..some didn't, seemed to be very simple and straightforward and rather sterile...
i just can't seem to see how a congregation would function without the backdrop of music..it's taken for granted no one notices it...
since my line of work is about supporting a scene...i'm very sensitive to it's purpose.

Evoking emotion is not the same as manipulating a desired response. Music in worship should make us wonder -- should open our minds to greater possibilities -- should move us, just not in a particular direction.

then it shouldn't be dynamic in order to support a pensive state of mind...
a drone perhaps...
musical movements with peaks and valleys...are manipulative. imo...

 

[waitasec]

Worship exists for the purpose of making space for God's transformation to take place in the assembled people.

just like in acts chapter 2...

 

[sojourner]

well then the focus isn't about worship it's about appreciating an art form

the act of worship is a shape of events, in which God creates with us. That's what the word means, and that's precisely what happens. Since music is also a shape of events that lives in time, and is creative in nature, music facilitates putting us within the right framework for worship to happen. That facilitation can either be honest or manipulative, depending upon the impetus.

take out the music and the vibe is not supported and left to ones imagination...which is what i think worship should be...left to ones imagination, not this hollywood type manipulation.

You're absolutely right!

i just can't seem to see how a congregation would function without the backdrop of music

Actually there are quite a few worship experiences that don't involve music. The services are very contemplative. I've participated in a number of them. I like them a lot.

then it shouldn't be dynamic in order to support a pensive state of mind...
a drone perhaps...
musical movements with peaks and valleys...are manipulative. imo...

They can be...but they don't have to be. Movement does not = manipulation.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Reply MOVED to the "Baha'i Faith" thread.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I don't think there should be any hard fast rule about this. If you are a local musician and want to play for free, that is fine. Many people are gainfully employed and have no desire to be paid.

That said, there are many professional musicians who have very expensive equipment and overhead that needs to be paid. If you have a bus and have traveled a great distance to perform and your art is your profession. This financial arrangement needs to be agreed to in advance.

Many traveling musicians receive a love offering from the church they play for. It is understood that if they do not receive enough money to sustain them, they will not be traveling or playing in the future.

 

[waitasec]

the act of worship is a shape of events, in which God creates with us. That's what the word means, and that's precisely what happens. Since music is also a shape of events that lives in time, and is creative in nature, music facilitates putting us within the right framework for worship to happen. That facilitation can either be honest or manipulative, depending upon the impetus.

music infused with worship has to do with culture...
our culture revolves around entertainment...
imo, worship should be done in private, but that's just me.

Actually there are quite a few worship experiences that don't involve music. The services are very contemplative. I've participated in a number of them. I like them a lot.

i am almost certain this wasn't in an evangelical setting...
i maybe wrong....

They can be...but they don't have to be. Movement does not = manipulation.

movements in music conjure an emotional response...
it is calculating...