Pedophilia and Islam

[McBell]

uh my dear friend, noone asked Sunni opinion. please always tell and share what you think and believe. thank you for your reply

.

um...
what is wrong with Sunni opinion?

 

[.lava]

um...
what is wrong with Sunni opinion?

nothing i had the feeling Shia Islam thinks that when a non-Muslim ask question to Muslims, only Sunni people were expected to answer or something. that is why i said noone is asking questions to Sunnis. a question directed to Muslims could be answered by any Muslim from any section IMO

.

 

[McBell]

nothing i had the feeling Shia Islam thinks that when a non-Muslim ask question to Muslims, only Sunni people were expected to answer or something. that is why i said noone is asking questions to Sunnis. a question directed to Muslims could be answered by any Muslim from any section IMO

.

AH.
I understand now.
And I agree, that the question was asked of Muslims meaning all of them, not one specific version of them.

 

[Autodidact]

Yes, obviously when I ask Muslims a question, it is directed to all Muslims, not just one sect.

So Shia in general do not agree that Muhammad had sex with a little girl? That is the general Shia view on the question?

And in part it comes down to the controversy over whether Muslims should abide by or follow hadith or not? Is that right?

(Remember, some of us don't know much about Islam, and need these things explained to us.)

 

[Autodidact]

Another child bride bleeds to death in Yemen.

 

[.lava]

Another child bride bleeds to death in Yemen.

that is disturbing really

.

 

[gnostic]

The point of the op has been addressed by at least 2 Muslims. Neither tried to defend paedophilia. Their answers seem to have been ignored.
I have heard of no paedophile scandals in the Muslim world. I have heard of them in Europe and America.
Am I missing something?

Pedophillia is far more common in Muslim world, today, then it is in Western culture, because they still have the customs of marrying off their under-age daughters off to adults.

It exist today in Muslim society and in the Middle East and Central Asia. You just choose to ignore it, because it is a far common practice than you think. It is social norms for Muslim to marrying child bride, willing or unwilling.

We have Lebanese girls being sent off to Lebanon, to marry complete strangers. They are unwilling, but they are given no choice, because Muhammad and Aisha are their role models. So if it was ok for Muhammad to marry an underage girl back then, then it ok to do so today.

It doesn't matter what period, the risk of girls dying young, can be also direct results of them marrying too early and get pregnant before their bodies are strong enough to carry a child to term.

Here is an example of something that just happen recently

The Painful Death of a Yemen Child Bride


Yemeni Girl, 12, Dies in Childbirth After 3 Days of Labor

By LARA SETRAKIAN

DUBAI, UAE, Sept. 14, 2009


After days of struggling through labor a 12-year-old "child bride" has died in Yemen, her baby a stillborn.
What would you do if you thought you saw a girl forced into polygamy?




Fawziyah Abdullah Youssef was married last year at the age of 11 to a 24-year-old. In a custom that is common in Yemen, her parents pulled her from school so that she could be given to her betrothed.


"Families think child marriage is a good thing…that it comes directly from Islam. They don't understand the dangers," Ahmad Al-Qureishi of Seyaj, a Yemeni children's rights group, tells ABC News.



The dangers are apparent in statistic gathered by the United Nations. Yemen has a high maternal death rate of 430 women per 100,000 births – more than 20 times that of its neighbor, Saudi Arabia -- and is in the top 50 countries ranked for high infant mortality.
Most of the maternal deaths are for early pregnancy, according to UNICEF.
"It's a deeply embedded social habit. For every one child marriage we can stop there are five more," said Naseem Rehman, a UNICEF spokesman in Yemen's capital of Sana'a.
Rehman says child brides in Yemen face a "triple disadvantage," having to cope with a lost childhood, a pregnancy their bodies aren't ready to handle, and often forced to give birth at home, far from any health facility.
An estimated 50 percent of women in Yemen are married before age 18, some as young as eight. In recent years Yemen's civil society and women's rights activists have pushed back against the practice, which is prevalent in what has long been the poorest country in the Arabian Peninsula.

Fawziyah Abdullah Youssef is hardly the 1st to die, and she won't be the last.

Here is something more recent, just a couple of days ago.

Yemen child bride 'bleeds to death'

A 13-year-old Yemeni girl has died of internal bleeding three days after being married, rights groups say.
The report comes amid ongoing debate on setting a minimum age for brides in Yemen, where more than a quarter of girls are married before the age of 15.
A 2009 law setting the minimum age at 17 was repealed after some lawmakers said it was un-Islamic. A final decision is due this month.
There was no official confirmation of the death by Yemeni officials.
The girl, said to have been married to a man in his 20s, died in the west of the country last week, the Arab Sisters Forum (Saf) rights group said.
A medical report by the hospital where she was treated said she had suffered a tear to her genitals and severe bleeding after intercourse, the group said.
In a statement obtained by the Reuters news agency, Unicef's regional director, Sigrid Kaag, said the UN child agency was "dismayed by the death of yet another child bride in Yemen".
Human rights groups have been pressurising the authorities to outlaw family-arranged child marriages in Yemen, which has a tribal social structure.

This girl wasn't pregnant. She died because her so-called new husband had sex with her. She died 3 days after being married to him. Died because of internal bleeding.

Many Muslim parents forced their daughters to become child brides and pedophillia do exist in non-Western world, but Muslims at large often chooses to ignore them, because their prophet have done so. The adult husbands are not the only problem, the problems are also child's Muslim parents.

 

[Autodidact]

When you think about it, the shocking thing is that it's NOT a scandal. Here you have the Catholic hierarchy running scared because of a pedophile scandal, and in many Muslim countries it's the norm.

 

[gnostic]

Yemen government tried to have law banning girls under 17 marrying. Well, guess who opposes the new law. Islamist parties. Bunch of pedophiles, the whole lot of these guys in the Islamist parties.

 

[.lava]

Yemen government tried to have law banning girls under 17 marrying. Well, guess who opposes the new law. Islamist parties. Bunch of pedophiles, the whole lot of these guys in the Islamist parties.

are you suggesting those who tried to ban it are not Muslims?

.

 

[gnostic]

are you suggesting those who tried to ban it are not Muslims?

No. I am saying that the more traditionalists of the Muslims are the ones who protest most vehemently against the bans.

Age old tradition is the problem here.

Do you doubt that Muslim tradition is not the problem here with regards to child marriage?

 

[Shia Islam]

As it's wrong to blame Christianity for the high rates of rape, teen pregnancy, sexual abuse and divorce, and the falling of marriage rates to the lowest in west.

It's also wrong to see Islam as the source of the problems in the third world, were there is the widespread of poverty, low level of education and literacy, the phenomena of authoritarianism, corruption, instability, conflict, and specially the tribal traditions.

 

[.lava]

No. I am saying that the more traditionalists of the Muslims are the ones who protest most vehemently against the bans.

Age old tradition is the problem here.

Do you doubt that Muslim tradition is not the problem here with regards to child marriage?

i agree with Shia Islam. noone could deny there are problems but announcing them Islamic is not what an independent mind would do

.

 

[Autodidact]

Maybe the problem is not so much Islam as Islamism.

However, the whole Aisha thing definitely contributes to this particular problem.

 

[YmirGF]

the whole Aisha thing definitely contributes to this particular problem.

It's the 800 pound gorilla in the room that we are supposed to ignore. It was a perfect relationship ordained by no less than Allah himself. What could go wrong?

 

[England my lionheart]

i agree with Shia Islam. noone could deny there are problems but announcing them Islamic is not what an independent mind would do

.

Hi Lava,i think that people do not see the distinction between Islamist revivalists and Islam,if we look at a worldwide picture of where Islamists are present there is suffering currently the Sudan and Somalia,of course thats just my opinion.

 

[.lava]

Hi Lava,i think that people do not see the distinction between Islamist revivalists and Islam,if we look at a worldwide picture of where Islamists are present there is suffering currently the Sudan and Somalia,of course thats just my opinion.

that could not bury the fact that those who want to ban marriage under age 17 are not people who's against Islam. Shia Islam or other Muslims here or i are not against Islam either but noone is approving abusive men and at the same time none of us would agree it was the same deal with Prophet himself

.

 

[England my lionheart]

that could not bury the fact that those who want to ban marriage under age 17 are not people who's against Islam. Shia Islam or other Muslims here or i are not against Islam either but noone is approving abusive men and at the same time none of us would agree it was the same deal with Prophet himself

.

To name only two,Saudi Arabia and Pakistan both have Child Marriages and both adminiser Sharia Law.

 

[gnostic]

It's also wrong to see Islam as the source of the problems in the third world, were there is the widespread of poverty, low level of education and literacy, the phenomena of authoritarianism, corruption, instability, conflict, and specially the tribal traditions.

i agree with Shia Islam. noone could deny there are problems but announcing them Islamic is not what an independent mind would do.

Look. I don't know much about Yemen's government, because I don't live there and I don't study politics of foreign governments. I don't know if you do or not. My background is in science, engineering and computers, so politics and social affair are perhaps not the strongest (knowledge).

But, I do see that both side of Yemen's all political parties are Muslims. And I don't know if the government in Yemen is corrupted or not. The Yemen government, however, recognised that there are serious health risks, especially young girls marrying so early in their life, having sex and getting pregnant, and want to something to stop, with ban on child bride marriage.

The thing is that many of Islamists, who are traditionalists, opposed the ban on child marriage. And I am quite sure that even government's own members are against the ban. It is these Muslims who believe traditions is far better than any current governmental policies.

I think all Muslims see Muhammad and Aisha are great role models, and to be "good Muslims" they will naturally try to copy Muhammad's actions or way of life as much as possible. That's what tradition is all about - copying Muhammad's way of life. Muhammad married Aisha while she was still very young, so to any Muslims, traditionalists or not, they will see marrying daughter off young to be not a problem.

You do understand or I hope you do understand that traditions are not always the best way to go. Following traditions blindly will overlook that there might be consequences for girls having sex at such early age, or giving birth.

I have heard some argue that girls mature earlier. Perhaps they did, but the problem exist back then, as they do here. I also understand that not just Muslims have been involved in child marriages, other cultures have don't so, just about everywhere.

However, most countries these today, imposed minimum age for girls being married. Some Muslim-populated countries don't. And some of these countries that do impose such ban, are ignored because that damn traditions, which many Muslims think they know best.

I gave 2 examples of the risk involve, both in Yemen: one in 2009 and the other one just happen this month (2010). One died trying to give birth, and the other because she had sex with husband (though I'd call it rape and sexual assault of minors). Both died, because of internal bleeding, organ rupture, because despite reaching puberty, their bodies are still not strong or mature enough to have sex or give birth.

I think death rates were pretty high for girls back in Muhammad's time - before Muhammad's time and even back in hundred years ago - because of such complications. That's why many governments of today, don't think girls should be married off, because of the serious health issues for the young girls.

That's why there are laws against pedophilia. There were no laws against pedophilia back 100 years ago, because it seem better to marry girls off while they were younger, because of cultural misconception that girls mature earlier.

All because of this bl@#dy thing they called "tradition".

 

[kiwimac]

The only evidence for Aisha's age being 6 / 9 are the Bukhari hadith collection which were collected 300 years AFTER Muhammad's death. There is some discussion about her age, so please note the following items which tend to disprove the 6 / 9 year old claim.

1: Other sources give Ayesha's age as being 16 at marriage and 19 at consummation.

2: Even if her age were 6 / 9, the custom of taking child brides was a part of Middle-Eastern culture. The Jews practised it as well as many of the other nations in the Middle-East and remember too that Mary of Nazareth's age was probably around the 12-14 mark.

3: Pedophilia is both a sexual dysfunction and a legal one. Muhammad's others wives were adult women with who he apparently had very good relations. This would not normally be the case for a pedophile.

4: Customs and Traditions as well as laws were very different then from now. What is considered unacceptable now was not considered anything to comment about then.

In the booklet Prophet of Islam, which was later incorporated in 1948 as the first chapter of his book Living Thoughts of the Prophet Muhammad, he writes in a lengthy footnote as follows:

“A great misconception prevails as to the age at which Aisha was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching majority at the time. Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than Aisha. This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be. This is further borne out by the fact that Aisha herself is reported to have stated that when the chapter [of the Holy Quran] entitled The Moon, the fifty-fourth chapter, was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call. All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that Aisha could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal. And there is one report in the Tabaqat that Aisha was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of Aisha took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal, while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijra in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage.” [4] (Bolding is mine.)

Further:

To facilitate understanding dates of these events, please note that it was in the tenth year of the Call, i.e. the tenth year after the Holy Prophet Muhammad received his calling from God to his mission of prophethood, that his wife Khadija passed away, and the approach was made to Abu Bakr for the hand of his daughter Aisha. The hijra or emigration of the Holy Prophet to Madina took place three years later, and Aisha came to the household of the Holy Prophet in the second year after hijra. So if Aisha was born in the year of the Call, she would be ten years old at the time of the nikah and fifteen years old at the time of the consummation of the marriage.

Later research

Research subsequent to the time of Maulana Muhammad Ali has shown that she was older than this. An excellent short work presenting such evidence is the Urdu pamphlet Rukhsati kai waqt Sayyida Aisha Siddiqa ki umar (‘The age of Lady Aisha at the time of the start of her married life&#8217 by Abu Tahir Irfani.[4a] Points 1 to 3 below have been brought to light in this pamphlet.

1. The famous classical historian of Islam, Ibn Jarir Tabari, wrote in his ‘History’:

“In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of Abdul Uzza, from whom Abdullah and Asma were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom Abdur Rahman and Aisha were born. These four were born before Islam.” [5]

Being born before Islam means being born before the Call.

2. The compiler of the famous Hadith collection Mishkat al-Masabih, Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib, who died 700 years ago, has also written brief biographical notes on the narrators of Hadith reports. He writes under Asma, the older daughter of Abu Bakr:

“She was the sister of Aisha Siddiqa, wife of the Holy Prophet, and was ten years older than her. … In 73 A.H. … Asma died at the age of one hundred years.” [6]

This would make Asma 28 years of age in 1 A.H., the year of the Hijra, thus making Aisha 18 years old in 1 A.H. So Aisha would be 19 years old at the time of the consummation of her marriage, and 14 or 15 years old at the time of her nikah. It would place her year of birth at four or five years before the Call.

3. The same statement is made by the famous classical commentator of the Holy Quran, Ibn Kathir, in his book Al-bidayya wal-nihaya:

“Asma died in 73 A.H. at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha.” [7]

Apart from these three evidences, which are presented in the Urdu pamphlet referred to above, we also note that the birth of Aisha being a little before the Call is consistent with the opening words of a statement by her which is recorded four times in Bukhari. Those words are as follows:

“Ever since I can remember (or understand things) my parents were following the religion of Islam.” [8]

Source

It is always dangerous to judge on the say-so of one source, moreover it is more dangerous to apply 21stC CE mores and legalities to other times and places.