Pence says there’s no room in the GOP for ‘apologists for Putin’’.

[Stevicus]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/05/pence-putin-russia-apologists-gop-trump/

“Ask yourself, where would our friends in Eastern Europe be today if they were not in NATO? Where would Russian tanks be today if NATO had not expanded the borders of freedom?” he said. “There is no room in this party for apologists for Putin.”


Not pullin his punches anymore.

What do you think? Is Pence sensing that his former boss’s influence is slipping making it safe to take shots? Or does he just not care anymore?

I'm not sure. Strictly speaking, unless the Congress actually declares war on Russia, the US is still technically neutral in this conflict. Therefore, there's no patriotic obligation to hate Russians at this time.

 

[Shaul]

No, I think Putin was counting on Trump leaving NATO if he got a second term.

We know that Trump wanted to get the U.S. out of NATO and was just barely talked out of it. If he got a second term he very likely would have done it. And then when Putin invaded Ukraine Trump would have done absolutely nothing.

That what Putin was waiting for. It didn’t happen so he went ahead.

Then Trump was successful. He floated the idea of a U.S. withdrawal from NATO as a negotiation ploy. If you bought it, then others probably did too. But, no, it isn’t likely that he would have withdrawn from NATO. Putin doesn’t act on speculation. On the other hand, Biden has done concrete things that show Putin he could go ahead. When Putin invaded the Crimea during the Obama/Biden Administration Biden did nothing. Unless you call giving him a “reset button” a strong measure. Biden is still allowing Russian oil to be bought by the U.S. Putin has figured Biden is all bluff.

 

[esmith]

No, I think Putin was counting on Trump leaving NATO if he got a second term.

We know that Trump wanted to get the U.S. out of NATO and was just barely talked out of it. If he got a second term he very likely would have done it. And then when Putin invaded Ukraine Trump would have done absolutely nothing.

That what Putin was waiting for. It didn’t happen so he went ahead.

So you are saying it didn't matter to Putin if the US remained in NATOr or not.
Then you say if Trump was reelected and Putin invvaded Trump would hae done nbsolutely nothing.
Seems like the current occupier of the White House isn't doing much either, at least as Putin sees it.

 

[Father Heathen]

I'm not sure. Strictly speaking, unless the Congress actually declares war on Russia, the US is still technically neutral in this conflict. Therefore, there's no patriotic obligation to hate Russians at this time.

Knock that silly "hating Russians" strawman **** off.

 

[Father Heathen]

So you are saying it didn't matter to Putin if the US remained in NATOr or not.
Then you say if Trump was reelected and Putin invvaded Trump would hae done nbsolutely nothing.
Seems like the current occupier of the White House isn't doing much either, at least as Putin sees it.

By "current occupier" you mean your POTUS, elected by your fellow citizens.

 

[Ponder This]

I'm just saying that this language about 'strength' and 'weakness' has been around for a while now, generally. I don't know exactly what it is grounded in.

Strength comes from the courage to stand up to aggressors.

For example, Trump stood up to Russia; he put hard sanctions on Russia. He gave javelins to Ukraine. He stood up to North Korea. He rebuilt the U.S. military which was greatly depleted. He faced bullies with courage and his administration was the first in 30 years not to start a new war.

Biden, on the other hand, bragged during his election about concessions he was able to extort from Ukraine by withholding money from them. That's called bullying and it doesn't take courage to do that. On top of that, Russia has previously invaded during the Obama-Biden administration, during which time they sent pillows to Ukraine. Obama got a Nobel Peace prize because of how he decreased U.S. military forces during his administration. Once elected, Biden stopped enforcing the border with Mexico, allowing over two million people to enter the U.S. illegally in a single year. He withdrew from Afghanistan in a way that demonstrated gross incompetence. After that China began to posture around Taiwan and Russia began to posture around Ukraine. When Biden spoke about Ukraine, prior to the invasion, he used language that suggested he wouldn't stop the Russians from invading. And when the Biden administration talked about sanctions against Russia, they talked about implementing them after Russia started an invasion of Ukraine instead of doing them in response to the Russian build up of troops on Ukraine's border that imminently threatened an invasion.

Pelosi projects more strength than Biden. Pelosi took the stance of banning Russian oil. Biden didn't.

Zelensky appears strong, because he actually stood on the streets of Kyiv to give a speech. Leaders of other countries have been known to cut and run under pressure.

Hopefully, this gives you a sense of what people mean when they talk about strength vs weakness.

 

[Stevicus]

Knock that silly "hating Russians" strawman **** off.

I don't agree that it's a strawman. Did you read the quote from Pence?

“Ask yourself, where would our friends in Eastern Europe be today if they were not in NATO? Where would Russian tanks be today if NATO had not expanded the borders of freedom?” he said. “There is no room in this party for apologists for Putin.”

NATO expanded before Putin's rise to power, even while Russia was still relatively free and democratic during the 1990s (although still facing great hardships and economic instability). Pence is gaslighting.

It's not about Putin. It's about the West's hostility towards Russia before Putin, which is what led to the rise of Putin.

At this point, opposition towards Putin from among the Russians appears to be growing, and his invasion of Ukraine is getting bogged down anyway. At least that answers Pence's question of "where would Russian tanks be," as they'd probably be in the same situation they're in now.

 

[lukethethird]

Nonsense. Putin has wanted to do this ever since the fall if the Soviet Union.

You have no idea what is going on.

 

[fantome profane]

You have no idea what is going on.

Backatcha

 

[amorphous_constellation]

For example, Trump stood up to Russia; he put hard sanctions on Russia.

What's this about a quote where he says 'putin is a genius'

Biden, on the other hand, bragged during his election about concessions he was able to extort from Ukraine by withholding money from them.

Is there an article or video of that

He withdrew from Afghanistan in a way that demonstrated gross incompetence. After that China began to posture around Taiwan and Russia began to posture around Ukraine.

Maybe the presidents of russia and china were planning on doing that anyway. Neither of them are going to live forever, and they probably want to put as many 'feathers on their hat' as they can.

When Biden spoke about Ukraine, prior to the invasion, he used language that suggested he wouldn't stop the Russians from invading.

Stopping a nuclear power from doing anything, is nuclear chicken, plain and simple. Ostensibly, putin has said, and now done, things that seem crazy. This gets back to the 'strength' and 'weakness' idea not meaning much, unless they project metaphysical energy that stops armies, like in star wars or dune

Zelensky appears strong, because he actually stood on the streets of Kyiv to give a speech.

I'm not even too sure that this is going to mean a lot in the end, if the russians amp up tactics and make him a martyr. That kind of thing is associated with heroism, but if worse comes to worse, I kind of wonder if he should leave. Then he is free to keep talking about what happened, and will have a platform. Though I suppose, in the western Christian mind, that escape itself might be associated with weakness?

 

[Ponder This]

What's this about a quote where he says 'putin is a genius'

What about it?

Is there an article or video of that

There is. It's not difficult to find with a simple online search. For example:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/v...to_ukraine_to_force_firing_of_prosecutor.html

Maybe the presidents of russia and china were planning on doing that anyway. Neither of them are going to live forever, and they probably want to put as many 'feathers on their hat' as they can.

Maybe?!?
If they think they can get away with it, they would do it. That's the point.

Stopping a nuclear power from doing anything, is nuclear chicken, plain and simple. Ostensibly, putin has said, and now done, things that seem crazy. This gets back to the 'strength' and 'weakness' idea not meaning much, unless they project metaphysical energy that stops armies, like in star wars or dune

Since nuclear chicken is inevitable, strength and weakness are front and center. Courage is necessary to oppose tyranny. The world cannot do what Putin wants just because Putin appears to have lost his sanity. That just increases the necessity for courage to oppose madness.

I'm not even too sure that this is going to mean a lot in the end, if the russians amp up tactics and make him a martyr. That kind of thing is associated with heroism, but if worse comes to worse, I kind of wonder if he should leave. Then he is free to keep talking about what happened, and will have a platform. Though I suppose, in the western Christian mind, that escape itself might be associated with weakness?

There have been three failed assassination attempts on Zelensky already, but he remains in Kyiv. I don't know that Zelensky is motivated by the Western Christian mind in any way. Zelensky is an outspoken Jew who has called upon the Jewish community world-wide to respond to the destruction of a Jewish Holocaust Memorial by a Russian missile. Putin has had the audacity to claim he is freeing Ukraine from nazies.

 

[metis]

Not pullin his punches anymore.

Nor should he, especially since his former boss still has been praising Putin. We should remember that this has been consistent with Trump even before Trump got elected which he continued the same praise of that neo-fascist during his entire term in office. "Two peas in a pod."

 

[metis]

I think this below is an accurate portrayal:

View attachment 60778

Absolutely true.

 

[metis]

So, do you agree with Pence, as quoted in the article, that, “It’s no coincidence that Russia waited until 2022 to invade Ukraine,” Pence said. “Weakness arouses evil, and the magnitude of evil sweeping across Ukraine speaks volumes about this president[Biden].”?

I think statements like the above very much pleases Putin, especially since Trump and Biden have been supporting each other for at least six years now.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

What about it?

I don't know what he meant, I'm asking you, or anyone who thinks that know. I'm done trying to figure out his weird talk

There is. It's not difficult to find with a simple online search. For example:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/v...to_ukraine_to_force_firing_of_prosecutor.html

Well, maybe that's not so good a thing either. I'm under no obligation to defend everything biden says, or has done.

There have been three failed assassination attempts on Zelensky already, but he remains in Kyiv. I don't know that Zelensky is motivated by the Western Christian mind in any way. Zelensky is an outspoken Jew who has called upon the Jewish community world-wide to respond to the destruction of a Jewish Holocaust Memorial by a Russian missile. Putin has had the audacity to claim he is freeing Ukraine from nazies.

Yeah, I am kind of nervous about this volunteer movement coming from any country, since I don't know how it may provoke putin. You can send the whole world there to fight and win, but it may inflame putin, who may then do something even crazier? Zelensky is courageous of course, but I think he may be more useful to world when living, and not captured or dead, as american media seems to project that the eventual takeover is inevitable, by the russians

What do you think the best outcome of all this would be? What do you think should be done? What will putin think, if big volunteer armies go there and actually push him out? Will he just go to a mountain cabin somewhere, and mutter to himself for a couple days? I am trying to think about all of this realistically.

 

[metis]

Let me just say that Trump withdrew military aid to the Ukraine and wanted to undermine NATO by having us pull out:
White House confirms Trump withheld Ukraine military aid in part because of DNC server rumors (yahoo.com)

John Bolton Says 'Putin Was Waiting' For Trump To Withdraw From NATO In Second Term (yahoo.com)

 

[Ponder This]

I don't know what he meant, I'm asking you, or anyone who thinks that know. I'm done trying to figure out his weird talk

I don't think there's anything to read into Trump's statement other than exactly what he said, "Putin is a genius". It doesn't project as strong or weak, it's just an observation about Putin. What's there to figure out?

Well, maybe that's not so good a thing either. I'm under no obligation to defend everything biden says, or has done.

It is what it is.

Yeah, I am kind of nervous about this volunteer movement coming from any country, since I don't know how it may provoke putin. You can send the whole world there to fight and win, but it may inflame putin, who may then do something even crazier? Zelensky is courageous of course, but I think he may be more useful to world when living, and not captured or dead, as american media seems to project that the eventual takeover is inevitable, by the russians

I get that people are afraid that if they do something, then Putin will do something more crazy, but, the thing is, successful people like Putin act crazy because they believe they can get what they want by acting crazy. Give Putin what he wants just because you are afraid he will do something more crazy and you practically guarantee that Putin will do something more crazy. It is a pattern of appeasement that leads to more appeasement. Such a pattern does not end well.

Volunteers from around the world come to Ukraine because they see that Putin's action is grossly irresponsible and immoral. This is a consequence of Putin's actions. Additional threats from Putin only increase such a reaction.

As for American media... they project lots of things, such as supposing that Putin expected to win the war in Ukraine in two days. The reality is closer to this: the people of Ukraine do not want Putin's rule. Putin's aggression here can only create more injustice.

What do you think the best outcome of all this would be? What do you think should be done? What will putin think, if big volunteer armies go there and actually push him out? Will he just go to a mountain cabin somewhere, and mutter to himself for a couple days? I am trying to think about all of this realistically.

Realistically, the best outcome is for the world to stop Putin in Ukraine directly, immediately, and militarily and put an immediate, direct end to Putin's aggression there. Realistically, to allow Putin to conquer Ukraine is to invite Putin to conquer more countries. The path of appeasement of bullies leads to worse and worse bullying. It never ends. Putin knows he made a mistake, but as long as he can pretend that he didn't, he doesn't think he has to apologize for it. Realistically, Putin's aggression against Ukraine can only have a negative consequence for Russia.

On the topic of strength and weakness, Putin sensed weakness in the Biden administration (just as he sensed weakness in the Obama-Biden administration) and decided he could conquer Ukraine at this time (just as he conquered Crimea during the Obama-Biden administration) without too terrible a consequence (as he sufferred not so terrible a consequence during the Obama-Biden administration). I hope I've made the relevance of strength and weakness clear to you: that if aggressors believe you will cave to their aggression (sense weakness), then they will aggress, but if aggressors believe you will resist their aggression (sense strength), then they will not aggress. Aggression in Ukraine is an extension of the failure to resist Putin's aggression in Georgia and Crimea. Appeasement leads to more appeasement. It didn't stop with Georgia. It didn't stop with Crimea. It doesn't stop with the Donbas region. It doesn't stop with Ukraine. It doesn't stop with Sweden and Finland and Poland. It doesn't stop until the people of the world unite and make it stop!