People who aren't worshipping Jesus, who are they worshipping?

[Desert Snake]

Thats odd logic. If I was not a mathematician and you were and you still had a problem with this. I had the answer, and prooved it to you, wouls I need to be experienced to give you an answer written straight forward in the math book?

Many scholars who intepret the bible are not christian. Translators as well. If anything, an objective non christian view would give a better look into what Christ taught since no Christian can agree on it. I also find it interesting all non christians do not see Chrisf as God. JW, Jewish, and the like dont either. Yet the few who do hold the claims to what Jesus taught when all three faiths (Muslim, Jewish, and Christian) come from the same abrahamic roots, hence the same God, the God of Abraham.

It's only odd logic if there were no basis for it. But there is a basis for my position. In fact, in a complete analysis, it has the best position. The most ''traditional'' churches are actually monotheistic, btw, they just have a trinity idea. The trinity idea is describing three aspects, and for strict Trinitarians, three persons, /afaik/, to the trinity; yet they still maintain the deific nature of Jesus. My position, like some churches, is more Jesus focused, so there is no real need for me to have a trinity idea. Same deity.
Hmm, still seem like odd logic to you?
Should I be getting my beliefs from scholars who never show enough understanding in some basic areas, to be considered credible enough to be ''telling'' people what their religious beliefs should be?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If youre basing your beliefs on the bible, you are going by many scholars, translators, etc who have written the bible. No offense, but I always thought it was paganish to consider a person a God. Jesus never refered to Himself as God but Gods son.

Luke 4:8 "You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him." Explicdly says to worship only God. I find it odd christianity (as based on the Church) sees a man as God when all other Abrahamic faiths see otherwise.

I also found that the scripture used to proo e Jesus is God is not stated point blank. However, there are many scripture verses that are bluntly stated that Jesus never puts Himself in the same place as His Father. Jesus and His Father are One in relationship and nature. As long as christians believe Jesus is God, they set themselves a part from their jewish roots and Jesus (who is Jewish) teachings that God is above for (imo) a more roman paganistic view that people can become Gods.

Its one think to have a personal relationship with Christ while still acknowleding His Father as He says to do. Its a whole new thing to disregard the Father as if He disapeared to Be (not mirror) His Son. (Image and mirror of doesnt mean one becomes another. They mirror each other in nature etc)

I dont understand how everyone else "gets it" but the group of christians (who do not represent christianity) dont get it. It doesnt change who Jesus is and His role. Its just odd this detail can make such a fuss.

It's only odd logic if there were no basis for it. But there is a basis for my position. In fact, in a complete analysis, it has the best position. The most ''traditional'' churches are actually monotheistic, btw, they just have a trinity idea. The trinity idea is describing three aspects, and for strict Trinitarians, three persons, /afaik/, to the trinity; yet they still maintain the deific nature of Jesus. My position, like some churches, is more Jesus focused, so there is no real need for me to have a trinity idea. Same deity.
Hmm, still seem like odd logic to you?
Should I be getting my beliefs from scholars who never show enough understanding in some basic areas, to be considered credible enough to be ''telling'' people what their religious beliefs should be?

EDIT

If I followed the Bible it would be both God the Father and Jesus focused. My prayers to the Father would be in Jesus name (not to Jesus Himself). If I prayed to Jesus it would be like He told His disciples, to get to the Father is "through" Him. So, prayer in Jesus' name, rather, I can get to God. God is still a separate entity and if I believed in God, Christ would be a bridge to that entity. I favor JW, Jewish, and Muslim in their view of Christ. When I read the Bible it mirrors what they see and why they believe as they do. Id take that into consideration even though Im not JW, Jewish, or muslim.

 

[leibowde84]

Since Jesus has all the power of heaven and earth, then who is being worshipped by people who aren't worshipping Jesus?
Also, ''bridging the gap''
If Jesus supposedly 'bridges the gap' between us and ''G-d'', how does that square with Jesus having all the power of heaven, and on earth? Why would Jesus be bridging the gap to another Deity/?/, if He already rules in heaven?

I guess ... either:

1. Jesus DOES NOT have all the power of heaven and earth, OR
2. Those that don't worship Jesus don't believe that he has all the power of heaven and earth.

Not too complicated.

 

[Desert Snake]

If youre basing your beliefs on the bible, you are going by many scholars, translators, etc who have written the bible. No offense, but I always thought it was paganish to consider a person a God. Jesus never refered to Himself as God but Gods son.

Oh, I'm not offended by that.

Luke 4:8 "You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him." Explicdly says to worship only God. I find it odd christianity (as based on the Church) sees a man as God when all other Abrahamic faiths see otherwise.

You mean Judaism and Islam? Okay. Yes, they are different. Do you find them to be more credible religions?

I also found that the scripture used to proo e Jesus is God is not stated point blank. However, there are many scripture verses that are bluntly stated that Jesus never puts Himself in the same place as His Father. Jesus and His Father are One in relationship and nature.

That's just interpretational. I believe there are verses that have Jesus saying He is G-d. but you would have to understand what He was saying, it may not be explicit in the English language.

As long as christians believe Jesus is God, they set themselves a part from their jewish roots and Jesus (who is Jewish) teachings that God is above for (imo) a more roman paganistic view that people can become Gods.

No idea what this means. Do you mean Talmudic Judaism? That wasn't around until long after the ''Jesus narrative'', ie Jesus the man.

Its one think to have a personal relationship with Christ while still acknowleding His Father as He says to do. Its a whole new thing to disregard the Father as if He disapeared to Be (not mirror) His Son. (Image and mirror of doesnt mean one becomes another. They mirror each other in nature etc)

How many gods are we up to now? Is Mary married to the ''father'', and Jesus is the son? That isn't my theology. My theology is that G-d incarnated as a man, at the most, but was always G-d. It is Jesus ,//'God', incarnating as Jesus the man. That's traditional; that's why people call Jesus 'God'. I'm not interested if that bothers you.

I dont understand how everyone else "gets it" but the group of christians (who do not represent christianity) dont get it. It doesnt change who Jesus is and His role. Its just odd this detail can make such a fuss.

Who is 'everyone else'? Because traditional churches, almost all of them, maintain a deific nature of Jesus. The fact that they don't teach multiple deities does nothing for your argument. If anything, it is the churches that obfuscate the fact that Jesus is God, that are causing confusion. Perhaps they should have a disclaimer?

 

[Desert Snake]

I guess ... either:

1. Jesus DOES NOT have all the power of heaven and earth, OR
2. Those that don't worship Jesus don't believe that he has all the power of heaven and earth.

Not too complicated.

That's great. It's just that it is stated plainly in the Bible, that Jesus has all the power of heaven, and on earth. Yes, yes, I know, Bible adherence only applies to my arguments.

 

[leibowde84]

That's great. It's just that it is stated plainly in the Bible, that Jesus has all the power of heaven, and on earth. Yes, yes, I know, Bible adherence only applies to my arguments.

That's even easier. The Bible can certainly be wrong. That is where faith comes in.

 

[Desert Snake]

That's even easier. The Bible can certainly be wrong. That is where faith comes in.

Sure, but then the Bible cannot be presented as some infallible, one interpretational document. Catch 22.

 

[leibowde84]

Sure, but then the Bible cannot be presented as some infallible, one interpretational document. Catch 22.

I wholeheartedly agree. It should not be presented as such.

 

[Desert Snake]

I wholeheartedly agree. It should not be presented as such.

Yep. It really even can't, even if someone went to extra lengths to make it presentable as such. It's something that always comes up in arguments, though.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There isnt multiple deities. In the Bible there is only One deity, God the Father "and" One Son, Jesus Christ.

You mean Judaism and Islam? Okay. Yes, they are different. Do you find them to be more credible religions?

To tell you honestly, yes. I find Judaism has a closer representation of God. Yet, I agree with Muslim in that I dont deny His divinity even though He isnt His Father. Seeing someone as God in any view sounds paganistic.

No idea what this means. Do you mean Talmudic Judaism? That wasn't around until long after the ''Jesus narrative'', ie Jesus the man.

What is Talmudic Judaiam? Im familar with Messenic Judaiam. Im a little fuzzy with that though.

That's traditional; that's why people call Jesus 'God'. I'm not interested if that bothers you

Traditional doesnt mean its right.. The christian faith came from the Church. The belief in one God is traditional. The belief in Christ is traditional. I cant find in the bible were it states Jesus Is God. Knowing by inspiration that He is is fine. The apostles never taught that either. They taught to get to the Father is through Jesus. Every christian belief is "through" Jesus, in "Jesus' (not Gods) name", in the "image of" (rather than Is). Jesus is important, of course, but to the point to call Him God! The Jews didnt even want Him to associate Himself as Gods Son...so as God? Purpostrous.

Im not saying not to look to Jesus. Im saying that Jesus never told anyone to replace the Father with Him. Actually, if Jesus were God, Jesus wouldnt be talking in the third person about Himself.

I guess one needs an objective view to see both sides. I did a thread that had both sides arguments and scripture for both. I understand why people believe Jesus as God. They would flip to think a human can save them. I understand why people say Jesus is not God, they would flip if anyone compared ANY Person to the Creator to the point of replacing Him.

In the former, I see that everything related to "godly things" miracles etc come from God only, so Jesus must be God because He can do miracles. The latter, just with Moses, God worked through Jesus. God performed the miracles. Why take the focus completely of God just because Jesus said to look to Him for His Fathers Words?
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I personally have empathy for what bothers others so that I see their view as Id like them to understand mine. I dont ask for agreement just respect and understanding.

 

[atpollard]

That certainly changes the crucifixion 'story line.' lol

Yup.
Rather than a river of blood flowing from a pile of burning lambs, God himself chose to die, once for all sin, in order that I might be redeemed from my slavery to sin and hell and the grave.
It does not merely 'change' it ... it is the source of its power.
The life of a single Creator is worth infinitely more than all of His creation combined ... and yet, as a man, he was qualified to die for the sin of mankind.

Everyone is free to believe or not ... I got no dog in that fight ... but from where I sit, it is more than an interesting fact ... Jesus' Deity is "Game, Set and Match" on my sin.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I hear and I see.

I am sure he hears and sees, but does he do anything else? You have problems right from Nigeria to Iraq.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Since Jesus has all the power of heaven and earth, then who is being worshipped by people who aren't worshipping Jesus?

Since all reality is just an illusion given to us by the Purple Space Monkey from Venus, what are people doing if not living a life dedicated to the Purple Space Monkey from Venus?

There are quite a few huge assumptions in your begging of this question.

 

[viole]

I don't believe in the middleman concept, no. I worship Jesus as God.

Who did not know the day of His return because only the Father, ergo Himself, knows it.

Correct?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Marisa]

Well as an atheist...nobody. That's kind of the point, you know?

ditto

 

[Nakosis]

Of course we only know of Jesus through the eyes of others, however from the story I think Jesus realized there was no separation between himself and God. Probably what he tried to teach. That such separation is an illusion.

Yet instead of understanding, people took this at face value and said ok there is no separation between Jesus and God, so Jesus and God must be the same. In doing so, man created another idol to worship. Instead of removing the barrier between man and God, Christianity just made it stronger.

To create a concept of God and worship it is idolatry. As an atheist, I don't create idols to worship.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Since Jesus has all the power of heaven and earth, then who is being worshipped by people who aren't worshipping Jesus?
Also, ''bridging the gap''
If Jesus supposedly 'bridges the gap' between us and ''G-d'', how does that square with Jesus having all the power of heaven, and on earth? Why would Jesus be bridging the gap to another Deity/?/, if He already rules in heaven?

I know not what course others may take, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Truth.

 

[Brian Stoin]

Ehm, have you read the book of Hebrews? Jesus is God, and He isn't an invisible deity that has to be approached by a 'middleman''.

Seriously, does that sort of Deity, really make sense?

Did you even read my post?

Jesus never said to worship him...read the gospels....if you already have, read them again.

Then read chapters 4 and 5 of Revelation...if you already have, read them again.
In John's vision he sees God on His throne and "The Lamb" (Jesus) in the midst of the throne and other angelic creatures, he then took the scroll from God (he didn't hand it to himself).

Don't want to deviate from the OP, so I am not going to get into a debate over the Trinity, etc.

 

[InChrist]

I believe in the God revealed in the scriptures and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit make up the Godhead. Jesus as the eternal Son who became flesh, (Son of God/Son of man) is the perfect and only mediator between God and humans as the scriptures indicate. Jesus said..."that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." John 5:23 The definition of worship is to show reverence, devotion, and love so to honor Jesus is to honor the Father and to honor the Father is to honor Jesus. This is worship of the God revealed in the scriptures and those who reject the worship of Jesus are not worshiping the God of the scriptures, Whom I believe to be the true God and Creator of heaven and earth.

 

[Desert Snake]

Who did not know the day of His return because only the Father, ergo Himself, knows it.

Correct?

Ciao

- viole

The ''father'' is metaphor. How can Jesus be deity, otherwise? Traditional Xianity does not teach multiple gods; in a multiple deity scenario, or demi-god scenario, yes, your idea does make sense. Not everything in the Bible is completely ''literal''.