Personal relationship with Jesus Christ

[greatcalgarian]

"I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ." If you are an Evangelical Christian you can remember saying these words probably more times than you can count. If on the other hand you are not "Born Again," you may have heard this phrase from an Evangelical inviting you to establish such a relationship with Christ. You may have had to ask just what the Evangelical Christian meant-- how is it possible to have a "personal relationship" with an individual of the past? Even if Jesus actually rose from the dead and is alive today, how can one "relate" to him as to another flesh-and-blood person?

Robert Price discussed this topic in Chapter 4 of his "Beyond Born Again" articles:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/beyond_born_again/index.shtml

And almost 9 Sundays out of 10 that the church I went to, this "I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ." was emphasized by the Pastor and should form the centre of life of Christians besides praying.

What do we really understand by having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Is it really that critical to have a relationship with Jesus in order to be a 'true' Christian?

What exactly is this personal relationship? The same as 'walk with Jesus', lead the life Jesus led? or many others?

Does the Catholic/Eastern Orthodox emphasize the requirement of a personal relationship with Jesus? Or is it more important to have a personal relationship with Mary?

What about LDS?

How do you know that you really have a personal relationship with Jesus, and is not just a fig of imagination?

Does this relationship comes from the inspriation from the Bible, or do you consolidate this relationship after listening to your Pastor advising you on how to interprete certain phrases in the bible to establish this relationship?

Do you really feel that the holy spirit is guiding you as to how to develop this relationship?

Just curious. to know what the thought of RF members on this issue.

This is part of Robert Price's thought:

Everyday relationships between individuals depend upon conversational interaction available by sense impression. Conversations may be carried on at long distances and with time intervals (say, by letter or telephone), but there must be such interaction. Is Jesus available in this way? Obviously not. When a Born Again Christian claims that "I speak to him in prayer; he speaks to me through the words of the Bible," this is really metaphorical and does not satisfy the requirement.

 

[Bishka]

Robert Price discussed this topic in Chapter 4 of his "Beyond Born Again" articles:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/beyond_born_again/index.shtml

And almost 9 Sundays out of 10 that the church I went to, this "I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ." was emphasized by the Pastor and should form the centre of life of Christians besides praying.

What do we really understand by having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Is it really that critical to have a relationship with Jesus in order to be a 'true' Christian?

What exactly is this personal relationship? The same as 'walk with Jesus', lead the life Jesus led? or many others?

Does the Catholic/Eastern Orthodox emphasize the requirement of a personal relationship with Jesus? Or is it more important to have a personal relationship with Mary?

What about LDS?

How do you know that you really have a personal relationship with Jesus, and is not just a fig of imagination?

Does this relationship comes from the inspriation from the Bible, or do you consolidate this relationship after listening to your Pastor advising you on how to interprete certain phrases in the bible to establish this relationship?

Do you really feel that the holy spirit is guiding you as to how to develop this relationship?

Just curious. to know what the thought of RF members on this issue.

This is part of Robert Price's thought:

I believe I have a personal relationship with Jesus, because for me, He died for me, He died so that I could go to heaven again, so that I could be with my Heavenly Father. He took all my sins, all my hardships, everything that I have ever had to go through upon Himself. He is my hero, anyone who can do that will be my hero. He is amazing and I do feel that I have the Holy Ghost/Spirit with me.

 

[Sunstone]

It seems Evangelicals are not using the words "personal relationship" to mean quite the same thing as most people mean by those words. Which raises the question of what do they actually mean by "personal relationship"?

 

[ladylazarus]

If the bible is in fact an accurate representation of Jesus, absent resurrection and all that silliness, then I would say the most plausible idea is that he suffered from schizophrenia. He exhibits all of the symptoms; delusions, hallucinations, speaking in metaphors, emotional instability. I mean really, the man sentenced an out of season fig tree to death for not having figs for him to eat.

So, personal relationship with Jesus...hm.

 

[muichimotsu]

good thoughts, ladylazarus. The concept of a relationship with Jesus depends moreso on what each person thinks of Jesus' divinity, because otherwise, the relationship is seen as not Christian by most who seem him as God incarnate or the Logos of God (action in Greek, roughly). As I've been saying in other posts, it's all about perspective. If you limit your understanding and absolute truth of the world to what you can understand without looking at other belief systems and perspectives of how the world works, the truth seems to be that you control what is the truth, not God or any other divine power. At least in a philosophical sense.

 

[greatcalgarian]

It seems Evangelicals are not using the words "personal relationship" to mean quite the same thing as most people mean by those words. Which raises the question of what do they actually mean by "personal relationship"?

That is correct. What I would like is to seek clarification from the Christians what exactly do they understand by "personal" and "relationship". "Sprititual relationship with Jesus", I could understand, but "personal relationship" beats me:banghead3 . Perhaps Christians should coin another phrase to mean what they want it to mean instead of using the phrase "personal relationship".

 

[greatcalgarian]

If the bible is in fact an accurate representation of Jesus, absent resurrection and all that silliness, then I would say the most plausible idea is that he suffered from schizophrenia. He exhibits all of the symptoms; delusions, hallucinations, speaking in metaphors, emotional instability. I mean really, the man sentenced an out of season fig tree to death for not having figs for him to eat.

So, personal relationship with Jesus...hm.

To be fair to Jesus, he has many good points, such as a great philosophical teacher in certain aspect that he preached. Accusing him of being schizophrenia is not what an ethical atheist should do, as there is no way of proving whether he is or he is not just by what his disciples passed down by oral tradition and recorded down as written work after about a few hundred years.

 

[greatcalgarian]

good thoughts, ladylazarus. The concept of a relationship with Jesus depends moreso on what each person thinks of Jesus' divinity, because otherwise, the relationship is seen as not Christian by most who seem him as God incarnate or the Logos of God (action in Greek, roughly). As I've been saying in other posts, it's all about perspective. If you limit your understanding and absolute truth of the world to what you can understand without looking at other belief systems and perspectives of how the world works, the truth seems to be that you control what is the truth, not God or any other divine power. At least in a philosophical sense.

How has looking at other belief systems going to affect the Christians from wanting to have a "personal relationship" with Jesus? Based on the faith they have in the Bible, Jesus is the way to salvation, Jesus is kind, Jesus want to be love, and hence they want a "personal relationship" with him. So how has that lead to the conclusion that those who believe in Jesus are controlling the truth and not God? Many Christians do study other belief systems, especially those learned pastors who obtained Ph.D. in theology, and all those Catholic Brothers and Bishops who spent their whole life studying Christianity as well as other religions?

 

[greatcalgarian]

I believe I have a personal relationship with Jesus, because for me, He died for me, He died so that I could go to heaven again, so that I could be with my Heavenly Father. He took all my sins, all my hardships, everything that I have ever had to go through upon Himself. He is my hero, anyone who can do that will be my hero. He is amazing and I do feel that I have the Holy Ghost/Spirit with me.

You did not address any of the points I raised. I understand you have your faith in Jesus. I know you understand all the doctrine and teaching of Christianity, such as Jesus died for us, died for our sin, suffered from our sin etc so that eventually we can be with our heavenly Father. But could you please elaborate how do establish your personal relationship with him?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

This is really pretty simple. When you accept Jesus, and more importantly, He accepts you, you become part of His family (John 1:12-13 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.), The Holy Spirit inwells you (I Cor. 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"), And the Spirit guides you (John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.").

A pretty personal relationship, wouldn't you say?

 

[mr.guy]

Accusing him of being schizophrenia is not what an ethical atheist should do,...

It's alot more fun to focus on Paul's epilepsy, i guess.

 

[ladylazarus]

To be fair to Jesus, he has many good points, such as a great philosophical teacher in certain aspect that he preached. Accusing him of being schizophrenia is not what an ethical atheist should do, as there is no way of proving whether he is or he is not just by what his disciples passed down by oral tradition and recorded down as written work after about a few hundred years.

You're correct, there is no way of proving whether he is or he is not just by what his disciples passed down by oral tradition and recorded down as written work after about a few hundred years. That's why I said "If the bible is in fact an accurate representation of Jesus, absent resurrection and all that silliness, then I would say the most plausible idea is that he suffered from schizophrenia. He exhibits all of the symptoms; delusions, hallucinations, speaking in metaphors, emotional instability."

Ethics are arbitrary, but even in the context of our society there's nothing at all unethical about suggesting that I feel the most plausible reason to explain Jesus' bizarre delusions and behavior is schizophrenia.

 

[muichimotsu]

[/QUOTE]How has looking at other belief systems going to affect the Christians from wanting to have a "personal relationship" with Jesus? Based on the faith they have in the Bible, Jesus is the way to salvation, Jesus is kind, Jesus want to be love, and hence they want a "personal relationship" with him. So how has that lead to the conclusion that those who believe in Jesus are controlling the truth and not God? Many Christians do study other belief systems, especially those learned pastors who obtained Ph.D. in theology, and all those Catholic Brothers and Bishops who spent their whole life studying Christianity as well as other religions?

Firstly, by looking at other belief systems, you see how other people view salvation, which they are entitled to believe.

And in itself, to you God may control the truth, but when you look at it deeper, you'll see that there is no concrete and absolute image of Jesus accepted by all. And btw, your image is one of many, just to emphasize my point that you are merely one of many people that looks at Jesus and you have taken many things that have affected your understanding of Christianity and Jesus' teachings and from there, you create a concept of Jesus that may not have been what Jesus wanted to be. I'm not saying my perspective on him is any better, but the fact that you believe your opinions of Jesus to be true does not make them absolutely so to everyone. If that is the case, you are taking your God's power into your own hands, which, if I'm not mistaken, is blasphemy.

 

[Katzpur]

What about LDS?

How do you know that you really have a personal relationship with Jesus, and is not just a fig of imagination?

Would that be a fig or a figment?

I'm going to quote Chieko Okazaki, a prominent LDS woman who has served in leadership capacities in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. She said something which struck me as pretty well explaining what we in my religion think of when someone asks if we have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Here's what she had to say:

"We know that on some level Jesus experienced the totality of mortal existence in Gathsemane. It's our faith that he experienced everything -- absolutely everything. Sometimes we don't think through the implications of that belief. We talk in great generalities about the sins of all humankind, about the suffering of the entire human family. But we don't experience pain in generalities. We experience it individually. That means Jesus knows what it felt like your your mother died of cancer -- how it was for your mother, how is still is for you. He knows what it felt like to lose the student-body election. He knows that moment when the brakes locked, and the car started to skid. He experienced the slave ship sailing from Ghana toward Virginia. He experienced napalm in Vietnam. He knows about drug addiction and alcoholism...

He understands about pregnancy and giving birth. He understands about rape and infertility and abortion... He understands your mother-pain when your five-year old leaves for Kindergarten, when a bully picks on your fifth-grader, when your daughter calls to say that the new baby has Down's Syndrome. He knows your [rage] when a trusted babysitter sexually abuses your two-year-old, when someone gives your thirteen-year-old drugs, when someone seduces your seventeen-year-old. He knows the pain you live with when you come home to a quiet apartment where the only children who ever come are visitors... when your fiftieth wedding anniversary rolls around and your [spouse] has been dead for two years. He's been lower than all that."

To me, realizing that Jesus Christ not only died so that I might be forgiven of my sins, but totally understands my feelings is what I believe having a personal relationship with Him really is.

 

[muichimotsu]

The fact that Jesus suffered does not directly connect him to divinity. The fact that in the Gospels that he is said to have placed himself in a position to be questioned about his divinity and that he claimed to have the true teaching of God are probably some of the defining factors in the development of his being divine and God incarnate in human form, aka, the Logos.

 

[greatcalgarian]

Would that be a fig or a figment?

I'm going to quote Chieko Okazaki, a prominent LDS woman who has served in leadership capacities in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. She said something which struck me as pretty well explaining what we in my religion think of when someone asks if we have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Here's what she had to say:

"We know that on some level Jesus experienced the totality of mortal existence in Gathsemane. It's our faith that he experienced everything -- absolutely everything. Sometimes we don't think through the implications of that belief. We talk in great generalities about the sins of all humankind, about the suffering of the entire human family. But we don't experience pain in generalities. We experience it individually. That means Jesus knows what it felt like your your mother died of cancer -- how it was for your mother, how is still is for you. He knows what it felt like to lose the student-body election. He knows that moment when the brakes locked, and the car started to skid. He experienced the slave ship sailing from Ghana toward Virginia. He experienced napalm in Vietnam. He knows about drug addiction and alcoholism...

He understands about pregnancy and giving birth. He understands about rape and infertility and abortion... He understands your mother-pain when your five-year old leaves for Kindergarten, when a bully picks on your fifth-grader, when your daughter calls to say that the new baby has Down's Syndrome. He knows your [rage] when a trusted babysitter sexually abuses your two-year-old, when someone gives your thirteen-year-old drugs, when someone seduces your seventeen-year-old. He knows the pain you live with when you come home to a quiet apartment where the only children who ever come are visitors... when your fiftieth wedding anniversary rolls around and your [spouse] has been dead for two years. He's been lower than all that."

To me, realizing that Jesus Christ not only died so that I might be forgiven of my sins, but totally understands my feelings is what I believe having a personal relationship with Him really is.

What you have stated so far is actually your faith and your agreeing to many people who have been telling you about Jesus can feel your pain, Jesus knows how a cancer patient suffered etc. But this cannot be a verifyable true "personal relationship" with Jesus, because what you think and what you believe Jesus knows this, and that, are all based on what other people have been telling you. How do YOU yourself personally feel and convinced that Jesus is having that personal relationship with you? Is it not when you talked with your Christian friends, or study bible together, or attending church, that all these ideas were repeatedly given to you, and after many exposure to this idea, then you started to believe that you have a "personal relationship" with Jesus?
In other words, isn't human's need of company (by evolution, human beings are gregarious species) drive us to crave for personal relationship with human, and in the case of religious belief, drive us to want to have a "personal relationship" with Jesus?

 

[greatcalgarian]

This is really pretty simple. When you accept Jesus, and more importantly, He accepts you, you become part of His family (John 1:12-13 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.), The Holy Spirit inwells you (I Cor. 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"), And the Spirit guides you (John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.").

A pretty personal relationship, wouldn't you say?

YES, you have clarify your faith in Jesus. But you have not described your "PERSONAL" relationship. By 'personal', I am taking the literal dictionary meaning of able to talk, hear, or correspond (by mail or email or telephone), and able to reach each other, and feel and respond to each other questions, joy, sadness, fear, lost etc. You just have "faith" that Jesus is hearing you, knowing you, and feeling your suffering, happiness etc, and you may just be feeling Jesus suffering after watching the movie Passion.

 

[greatcalgarian]

You're correct, there is no way of proving whether he is or he is not just by what his disciples passed down by oral tradition and recorded down as written work after about a few hundred years. That's why I said "If the bible is in fact an accurate representation of Jesus, absent resurrection and all that silliness, then I would say the most plausible idea is that he suffered from schizophrenia. He exhibits all of the symptoms; delusions, hallucinations, speaking in metaphors, emotional instability."

Ethics are arbitrary, but even in the context of our society there's nothing at all unethical about suggesting that I feel the most plausible reason to explain Jesus' bizarre delusions and behavior is schizophrenia.

The reason why I brought ethic into question is that although you started with the "If the bible......" and then you proceed to quote just those part of the bible naration that may have meant Jesus was having the character of schizophrenia, but did not note the many other positive part of Jesus. Of course if you just consider Jesus' bizarre delusions as interpreted by some people from bible passages (they may not have interpreted fairly), and ignore others, you may then reach what you consider as the most plausible idea.

However, I encourage you to view these negative portrayal of Jesus with a pinch of salt and look at Jesus from a broader picture. I recommend you to read these:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/schweitzer/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/
The PBS covering is much more satisfying to read then just to read some narrow minded atheists emphasizing on something which may not be true reflection of the historical Jesus, or the "religious" Jesus.

 

[greatcalgarian]

Firstly, by looking at other belief systems, you see how other people view salvation, which they are entitled to believe.

And in itself, to you God may control the truth, but when you look at it deeper, you'll see that there is no concrete and absolute image of Jesus accepted by all. And btw, your image is one of many, just to emphasize my point that you are merely one of many people that looks at Jesus and you have taken many things that have affected your understanding of Christianity and Jesus' teachings and from there, you create a concept of Jesus that may not have been what Jesus wanted to be. I'm not saying my perspective on him is any better, but the fact that you believe your opinions of Jesus to be true does not make them absolutely so to everyone. If that is the case, you are taking your God's power into your own hands, which, if I'm not mistaken, is blasphemy.

I find difficulty following your arguement of "God may control the truth", "taking God's power into your hand" leading to blasphemy.

I am not arguing whose idea of Jesus is closer to the truth. I am just interested to know how different Christians explain their understanding/interpretation of "having a personal relationship with Jesus".

 

[Katzpur]

What you have stated so far is actually your faith and your agreeing to many people who have been telling you about Jesus can feel your pain, Jesus knows how a cancer patient suffered etc. But this cannot be a verifyable true "personal relationship" with Jesus, because what you think and what you believe Jesus knows this, and that, are all based on what other people have been telling you. How do YOU yourself personally feel and convinced that Jesus is having that personal relationship with you? Is it not when you talked with your Christian friends, or study bible together, or attending church, that all these ideas were repeatedly given to you, and after many exposure to this idea, then you started to believe that you have a "personal relationship" with Jesus?
In other words, isn't human's need of company (by evolution, human beings are gregarious species) drive us to crave for personal relationship with human, and in the case of religious belief, drive us to want to have a "personal relationship" with Jesus?

Cal,

I'm not sure you even know what you're looking for. I've seen a lot of good answers to your questions and you have responded to every one of them by saying they're not really valid. I'm sorry I can't explain myself to your satisfaction, but it doesn't really appear that anyone else is hitting the mark, either.