Pew study and the Rise of ‘Jews of no religion’

[Levite]

What arrogant and disgusting condescension.

I really fail to see how it is arrogance or condescension to have noted the failure of a unilateral attempt to change a fundamental law, and the failure of Liberal Judaism to adequately Jewishly educate their children, and to prefer the maintenance of basic standards of engagement for a healthy community.

Would we be just as condemnatory of judgment if there were a huge swath of the American populace who flatly refused to either send their children to school (public or private) or educate them at home, refused to educate themselves about anything, disdained following American law save only on the rarest occasion it suited them, neglected to teach their kids more than the most basic English vocabulary (if they taught them English at all), or even any Spanish or French, refused to serve jury duty or be involved in any kind of civic obligation except for block parties and going to the State Fair, and expected the rest of the American populace to be supportive to them and just pick up the slack?

When did it become condescending to say that people have responsibilities to one another, and when they fail to engage with those responsibilities, we should be honest about that failure?

On the contrary, I think it is the height of arrogance to suggest that a complete neglect of thousands of years of tradition, an apathetic neglect of basic Jewish education, a complete rejection of the responsibility to keep the Jewish People in existence, a complete lack of caring for the needs of the people as a whole, the halachah that binds us together, and for the sacrifices of all our ancestors who suffered and bled and died for our freedom to observe the ways of our people openly and without fear, should not only be tolerated but met with hugs.

There is plenty of room within Jewish life, within Jewish tradition, within halachah, for pluralism and the tolerance of many differing opinions. But only if we're all Jews, expressing educated and thoughtful opinions based on knowledge and the experience of living richly Jewish lives.

 

[Moishe3rd]

I don't think this shows anything surprising or new. Non-Orthodox Judaism in America has been suffering huge assimilation and lack of adequate Jewish education for a long time now. And Orthodoxy everywhere has been suffering from zealotry and excessive social conservatism for a long time. Everybody's retention rates are suffering, though for different reasons; but also because the day of movements is coming to a close.

All this says to me is what I've predicted for a long time: the confluence of Jewish ignorance and intermarriage will lead to enormous numbers of Jews being lost completely to total secular assimilation and apostasy; the "center" of educated, paticipatory, in some way observant Jews will become a tiny informal community of former Conservative, former Modern Orthodox, and a very few former Reform Jews; the rest of Orthodoxy will turn itself into a Jewish Taleban if they're not careful; and non-fundamentalist Jewish life will look very different (and much smaller) 20 or 25 years from now.

Oy. "...suffering from zealotry and excessive social conservatism..." "A Jewish Taliban..."

The last time I took issue with your slander vis a vis Torah observant Judaism, I ended the discussion by thanking you for expressing your feelings and telling you that I better understood where you are coming from...
I figured that there was no point in continuing a discussion that boiled down to something along the lines of that you don't like Torah observant Jews because you think they don't treat "You" or people you know nicely. You think that Orthodox Jews "hurt people's feelings"
(Quotation marks to denote generalities and non specificity)

Okay fine.
You want Orthodox Jews to treat you and your contemporaries with "Rabbinical Respect;" as "equals among equals..."

Yet, you are comfortable with forecasting that Orthodox Jews are going to torture people to death; stone people to death; murder anyone who disagrees with Torah observant Judaism; ban and murder all other religions; lock women up and not allow them out alone without a male relative; and try and create a Jewish State by violent and horrific warfare.

Whoa. :magic:

And you really don't understand why Orthodox Jews might not respect someone who holds your beliefs....
That is so odd.

The age of big shuls is over. Movements as we know them are on the way out. At some point there will be only a large Orthodox community and a small Non-Orthodox community. What will keep people Jewish is the confluence of education and the engagement of their parents in Jewish life, creating contextualized, rich, and pleasant Jewish lives.

But I find nothing shocking in this. Only sad, as usual.

As for the OP:
Of course there is nothing shocking in this - it has been going on for over 4,000 years.
All of Avraham Avinu's converts disappeared. Yaakov went down to Egypt with Only his family.
We learn that 4/5 of all Jews died in Egypt because they didn't want to leave...
The Kingdom of Israel became Judah and Israel within 100 years. And, all of Israel, the "Ten Tribes" vanished.
Ezra; Nehemiah; Zachariah - all had a hell of a time "purifying" the Jewish bloodline from Babylon back to Israel...
Then, Jews assimilated en mass to Hellenism and Judaism disappeared until...
a very Taliban like character called Matthias and his son Judah Maccabee, cut off the head of a Jew who was worshiping the wrong way and started a bloody civil war against the Hellenized Jews of Israel.
Then, after 300 plus bloody years of Jewish infighting over Whose Flavor of G-d is the Best Flavor of G-d (or "Who's a Jew?"), the Land of Israel was depopulated by the Romans.
Paul Johnson, British historian, estimates that at the time of Augustus Caesar, there were 8 million Jews in the Roman Empire.
600 years later, there were 3 million Jews in the same area. The rest had all assimilated into the surrounding cultures.
And the assimilation goes on for the next 2,000 years until today.
It was considered a hard, cold FACT in the first half of the 20th Century that Orthodox Judaism was an antiquated dinosaur that was dying and would soon cease to exist...

However, as it was in Beginning, it is now, and ever shall be... Those Jews who dedicate their lives to Torah and Jewish observance are the ones that have always ended up surviving and building up a new Strength and Core of Torah observant Judaism.
This is good.

 

[Levite]

you are comfortable with forecasting that Orthodox Jews are going to torture people to death; stone people to death; murder anyone who disagrees with Torah observant Judaism; ban and murder all other religions; lock women up and not allow them out alone without a male relative; and try and create a Jewish State by violent and horrific warfare.

Charedim in Israel already enforce their concepts of tznius by threat of violence: everyone in J'lem knows women can't walk through Me'ah She'arim or Ge'ulah in less that full head to toe coverage, or they get cursed and threatened at best, or pelted with garbage, or even stoned. Not even to mention segregation on public buses. There are even Charedi politicians who want to segregate El Al flights.

The same sort of thing goes for treatment of those whom they perceive as chilulei shabbos. My own wife, while she was staying in Jerusalem a number of years ago before we were married, had a clinical anxiety attack one Shabbat, and not having gotten a mobile for a short trip, called her parents on a pay phone on a public street. The Charedi family above the phone booth emptied a dirty diaper pail on her from above.

They also want the government to strip rights from non-Orthodox rabbis and congregations, and many favor Jewish control of all religions' holy sites (or so I saw in a poll while I was living there).

I'm not saying they're at the same place as the Taleban. I'm not even saying it's unavoidable that they will turn into the Taleban. But they're walking that road. And I don't see many Orthodox people, except for those in Open Orthodoxy, getting up and objecting. Rather, I see a lot of support for these things.

 

[dantech]

What arrogant and disgusting condescension.

Because you disagree? It goes both ways.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I really fail to see how it is arrogance or condescension to have noted the failure of a unilateral attempt to change a fundamental law, ...

And, of course, that 'failure' has a name: Reform Judaism ...

... The 2000 National Jewish Population Survey (NJPS) performed by the Council of Jewish Federations found that 10% of American Jews identify themselves as Orthodox, including 21% of those who belong to a synagogue.

... The NJPS found that 35% of American Jews identify themselves as Reform, including 39% of those who belong to a synagogue. There are approximately 900 Reform synagogues in the United States and Canada. For more information about Reform Judaism, see The Union for Reform Judaism.

... The NJPS found that 26% of American Jews identify themselves as Conservative, including 33% of those who belong to a synagogue. There are approximately 750 Conservative synagogues in the world today.

- source

I wonder what the Talmud says about selection bias.

 

[dantech]

Oy. "...suffering from zealotry and excessive social conservatism..." "A Jewish Taliban..."

The last time I took issue with your slander vis a vis Torah observant Judaism, I ended the discussion by thanking you for expressing your feelings and telling you that I better understood where you are coming from...
I figured that there was no point in continuing a discussion that boiled down to something along the lines of that you don't like Torah observant Jews because you think they don't treat "You" or people you know nicely. You think that Orthodox Jews "hurt people's feelings"
(Quotation marks to denote generalities and non specificity)

Okay fine.
You want Orthodox Jews to treat you and your contemporaries with "Rabbinical Respect;" as "equals among equals..."

Yet, you are comfortable with forecasting that Orthodox Jews are going to torture people to death; stone people to death; murder anyone who disagrees with Torah observant Judaism; ban and murder all other religions; lock women up and not allow them out alone without a male relative; and try and create a Jewish State by violent and horrific warfare.

Whoa. :magic:

And you really don't understand why Orthodox Jews might not respect someone who holds your beliefs....
That is so odd.



As for the OP:
Of course there is nothing shocking in this - it has been going on for over 4,000 years.
All of Avraham Avinu's converts disappeared. Yaakov went down to Egypt with Only his family.
We learn that 4/5 of all Jews died in Egypt because they didn't want to leave...
The Kingdom of Israel became Judah and Israel within 100 years. And, all of Israel, the "Ten Tribes" vanished.
Ezra; Nehemiah; Zachariah - all had a hell of a time "purifying" the Jewish bloodline from Babylon back to Israel...
Then, Jews assimilated en mass to Hellenism and Judaism disappeared until...
a very Taliban like character called Matthias and his son Judah Maccabee, cut off the head of a Jew who was worshiping the wrong way and started a bloody civil war against the Hellenized Jews of Israel.
Then, after 300 plus bloody years of Jewish infighting over Whose Flavor of G-d is the Best Flavor of G-d (or "Who's a Jew?"), the Land of Israel was depopulated by the Romans.
Paul Johnson, British historian, estimates that at the time of Augustus Caesar, there were 8 million Jews in the Roman Empire.
600 years later, there were 3 million Jews in the same area. The rest had all assimilated into the surrounding cultures.
And the assimilation goes on for the next 2,000 years until today.
It was considered a hard, cold FACT in the first half of the 20th Century that Orthodox Judaism was an antiquated dinosaur that was dying and would soon cease to exist...

However, as it was in Beginning, it is now, and ever shall be... Those Jews who dedicate their lives to Torah and Jewish observance are the ones that have always ended up surviving and building up a new Strength and Core of Torah observant Judaism.
This is good.

So to sum it up, you are against assimilation?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

More from the Pew Report ...

... The survey also shows that Reform Judaism continues to be the largest Jewish denominational movement in the United States. One-third (35%) of all U.S. Jews identify with the Reform movement, while 18% identify with Conservative Judaism, 10% with Orthodox Judaism and 6% with a variety of smaller groups, such as the Reconstructionist and Jewish Renewal movements. About three-in-ten American Jews (including 19% of Jews by religion and two-thirds of Jews of no religion) say they do not identify with any particular Jewish denomination.

... Within all three denominational movements, most of the switching is in the direction of less-traditional Judaism. The survey finds that approximately one-quarter of people who were raised Orthodox have since become Conservative or Reform Jews, while 30% of those raised Conservative have become Reform Jews, and 28% of those raised Reform have left the ranks of Jews by religion entirely. Much less switching is reported in the opposite direction. For example, just 7% of Jews raised in the Reform movement have become Conservative or Orthodox, and just 4% of those raised in Conservative Judaism have become Orthodox.

It's interesting to compare the first graph with the 2000 National Jewish Population Survey (NJPS) numbers quoted above.

• In both surveys Orthodoxy accounts for 10% of the Jewish population.
• In both surveys Reform accounts for 35% of the Jewish population.
• But the Conservative movement is shown to have declined from 26% to 18%.

We no longer live in the sheitel. Endogamy is a fools errand - intermarriage can, does, and will happen. Success and failure should be measured by the results of our efforts to respond to this reality.

 

[Moishe3rd]

Charedim in Israel already enforce their concepts of tznius by threat of violence: everyone in J'lem knows women can't walk through Me'ah She'arim or Ge'ulah in less that full head to toe coverage, or they get cursed and threatened at best, or pelted with garbage, or even stoned.

It is s general fact of life that any statement that begins with "everyone knows" tends to be a blatant falsehood or, at best, an greatly exaggerated slander that satisfies the personal whims of the person writing it...

Not even to mention segregation on public buses. There are even Charedi politicians who want to segregate El Al flights.

Of course.
This - For You - is the exact same as torturing people to death; literally stoning people to death; murdering anyone who disagrees with Torah observant Judaism; banning and murdering all other religions; locking women up and not allowing them out alone without a male relative; and trying and create a Jewish State by violent and horrific warfare.

As might be evident, I question your premise (and find your perspective rather disturbing).

I'm not saying they're at the same place as the Taleban. I'm not even saying it's unavoidable that they will turn into the Taleban. But they're walking that road. And I don't see many Orthodox people, except for those in Open Orthodoxy, getting up and objecting. Rather, I see a lot of support for these things.

So sorry. Yes, you did "Say:" "...suffering from zealotry and excessive social conservatism..." "A Jewish Taliban..."

 

[dantech]

And, of course, that 'failure' has a name: Reform Judaism

Sorry to say, but the diagram you posted is indeed showing that Reform Judaism has been failing.

"The survey finds that approximately one-quarter of people who were raised Orthodox have since become Conservative or Reform Jews, while 30% of those raised Conservative have become Reform Jews, and 28% of those raised Reform have left the ranks of Jews by religion entirely. Much less switching is reported in the opposite direction. For example, just 7% of Jews raised in the Reform movement have become Conservative or Orthodox, and just 4% of those raised in Conservative Judaism have become Orthodox."

The trend seems to suggest that people are not actually switching for a belief system, but to an easier to practice style of religion.
In the case of 28% of those raised as Reforms, we see that they just stopped being Jewish. This is equal to about 2-3% of all Jews completely forgetting Judaism. The numbers will only rise if we don't do something soon.

 

[Moishe3rd]

So to sum it up, you are against assimilation?

Yes.... and no....
I believe that G-d commanded His Jewish People to be separate and not be like other nations.
And, History tells us that because of assimilation, most of planet Earth has some Jewish blood within all peoples.
It would appear, on the face of it, that this is also somehow part of G-d's plan.

 

[metis]

I think the laws of kashrut, if followed, would reduce the number of inter-marriages. A big part of getting to know someone, is by having meals with them. If a Jew limits where they will eat, then fewer opportunities will exist to get to know a non-Jew.

Also, in the past, we were confined to ghettos. There wasn't much opportunity to even meet a non-Jew. Nowadays our freedom has us doing a lot of socializing with non-Jews. Our freedom might be contributing to our demise.

I really don't think Judaism will disappear, and I do believe we will continue on, although changing as it does. And where we may eat is only one small speck of our exposure to gentiles, so I really don't think that just keeping kosher will change that much. And how can we be a "light unto the nations" is we act like religious hermits?

Again, I do believe we really have something to offer and we shouldn't be afraid of doing that, imo.

 

[dantech]

I really don't think Judaism will disappear, and I do believe we will continue on, although changing as it does. And where we may eat is only one small speck of our exposure to gentiles, so I really don't think that just keeping kosher will change that much. And how can we be a "light unto the nations" is we act like religious hermits?

Again, I do believe we really have something to offer and we shouldn't be afraid of doing that, imo.

Offer all you want to the other nations, except for your sons and daughters.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Sorry to say, but the diagram you posted is indeed showing that Reform Judaism has been failing.

Perhaps, but right now I am more interested in your edit. You previously wrote (and subsequently deleted) ...

Can you comment on the following, please:

(Deut. 7:3): "You shall not marry them (the gentiles, about which the Bible speaks in the previous verses), you shall not give your daughter to their son and you shall not take his daughter for your son."

It was wise of you to back off, but it's also interesting how some seek to enlist anything and everything in their xenophobic push-back against the other.

 

[dantech]

Perhaps, but right now I am more interested in your edit. You previously wrote (and subsequently deleted) ...

​

It was wise of you to back off, but it's also interesting how some seek to enlist anything and everything in their xenophobic push-back against the other.

Actually, that was not the reason why I deleted it. The other part of the post was why. I realized I misunderstood what you were showing.

If you wish to comment on these verses, I'm up for it.

Why do you consider these verses, which speak about the exact issue we are discussing, to be "anything and everything" in our "xenophobic push back against the other"?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If you wish to comment on these verses, I'm up for it.

 

[dantech]

to you too, good sir.

 

[metis]

I get the difficulties of intermarriage... But it does no one any favors to pretend that intermarriage is not transgressive, and is not wrong according to our laws and traditions, and is not harmful to the Jewish People...

I actually hope very much that the lion's share of responsibility for intermarriage is ignorance-- and, indeed, my years teaching Jewish Studies to kids and adults both tell me it almost certainly is, given the sheer depths of widespread Jewish ignorance I encounter everywhere-- because if it's not due to ignorance, it's due to a callous disregard of Jewish law and contempt for Jewish tradition and history...

I get that Liberal Judaism has been trying very hard to avoid the social pressuring and repressive one-upmanship of observance that has been steadily growing in the Orthodox world, and I support avoiding that. But we've gone too far in the opposite direction: when nothing is prohibited, and there are no consequences, then everything is fair game, and nothing is valued.

First of all, I do appreciate your lengthy response as it helps me to better understand where you're coming from. However, as you might suspect, my take is somewhat different, although not entirely different.

I've been married to the same woman for 46 years, and ours is an intermarriage. We have three kids and six grandkids whereas our oldest daughter and her two kids are Jewish (one is having her bat mitzvah a week from this Shabbos), our youngest daughter and her three kids are Christian, and our son and his daughter are secular. We attend each others religious events, and we discuss our different faiths but we don't argue about it, and this is largely due to the fact that we really do respect each other's decision even if we don't agree with them.

Now, with that being said, yes there can be conflict when dealing with intermarriage, which is why I would hope that any couple contemplating it should have things worked out in advance. If there's no satisfactory solution, then I certainly wouldn't recommend they get married.

On your second item, how one considers God, Torah, Talmud, etc., is of vital importance here, and there's simply no uniform agreement on this. Generally speaking, how we may look at each is going to in large part determine what our approach may be.

Early in our history, people did not have their own copy of Torah, so are we to label them as "ignorant"? I would suggest that most adult Jews who have at least gone through a bnai mitvah have a pretty good idea what Torah is about in general, and they have made their own judgments based on that, which can and often do change as they get older. They may not be "Torah scholars", but what says they have to be?

And to the last point, I don't believe most Jews operating within the context of a synagogue consider everything "fair game". Instead, people generally will go in the directions of their beliefs, and since beliefs are variable, so are our responses. I simply do not picture a "Torah scholar" intrinsically acting more moral than a secular Jew, but I do agree that we should try and do our best to learn what we can. However, learning can lead us in different directions, and I don't think that's all bad.

 

[metis]

Offer all you want to the other nations, except for your sons and daughters.

My son and daughters made their own choices, and I could and did advise, but the ultimate choice was theirs.

BTW, they say that Mother Theresa converted more people to Catholicism by not trying to convert people to Catholicism. It was her compassion and willingness to act on it that was most impressive.

Therefore, instead of screaming "dogma, dogma, dogma!", we maybe would be better off living "compassion, compassion, compassion", and a great many Jews in all branches do just that. My oldest granddaughter, who attends our Reform shul, did her charity work at the Friendship Circle facility run by the Lubavitch chasidim here in the Detroit area, and she's been doing it for four years now and it's changed the way she thinks and acts. To me, acts based on compassion are more important than all the prayers and amens worldwide combined over that same period of time.

That's my take.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Why do you consider these verses, which speak about the exact issue we are discussing, to be "anything and everything" in our "xenophobic push back against the other"?

It's rather hard to keep up with your editing ...

1. When the Lord your God brings you to the land that you are about to invade and occupy, and He dislodges many nations before you -- the Hittites, Girga****es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, seven nations much larger than you --
2. and the Lord your God delivers them to you and you defeat them, you must doom them to destruction: grant them no terms and give them no quarter.
3. You shall not intermarry with them: do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons.
4. For they will turn your children away from Me to worship other gods, and the Lord's anger will blaze forth against you and He will promptly wipe you out.

Deuteronomy 7:3 has a context. So did the marriage of Moses and Esther.

 

[dantech]

My son and daughters made their own choices, and I could and did advise, but the ultimate choice was theirs.

BTW, they say that Mother Theresa converted more people to Catholicism by not trying to convert people to Catholicism. It was her compassion and willingness to act on it that was most impressive.

Therefore, instead of screaming "dogma, dogma, dogma!", we maybe would be better off living "compassion, compassion, compassion", and a great many Jews in all branches do just that. My oldest granddaughter, who attends our Reform shul, did her charity work at the Friendship Circle facility run by the Lubavitch chasidim here in the Detroit area, and she's been doing it for four years now and it's changed the way she thinks and acts. To me, acts based on compassion are more important than all the prayers and amens worldwide combined over that same period of time.

That's my take.

Would you agree that a an intermarriage couple will most likely have some of their children stray away from Judaism, which would put the grand children even further from Judaism than their parents?

I don't think you can reasonably disagree with that, and if you do agree, then you understand that intermarriage slowly, but surely destroys our future as a religion, our ethnicity, our traditions, and eventually our connection to God as we know it...