Pew study and the Rise of ‘Jews of no religion’

[Moishe3rd]

So God came down from the mighty heavens and told you so himself?

So you find the idea of a Creator too unreasonable to even contemplate?

 

[Ben-Tanit]

I think that it's good that Jews view themselves as a people - not a religion. As do I. I am a Jew/Hebrew by ethnicity, but I adhert the ancient Canaanite faith.

I don't quite agree with inter-marriage because that way the Jews' children lose their identity as Jews, even if it means in the religious sense.

 

[Caladan]

So you find the idea of a Creator too unreasonable to even contemplate?

Pray tell, what are the ancient scribbling of a Levantine scribe have to do with the idea of a Creator, or what such a creator desires from human beings? You took a giant leap right there.
I should equally refer to the Hammurabi, Hittite codex, or the decrees of Cyrus if ancient social norms have relevance to the mystery of God's existence, or Divine Will.

 

[Dena]

Young people from educated background wish to move forward with the world, they cannot repeat the same rituals. They need new meanings, and for the traditions, rituals and ideals to mean something in today's world, and today's cultural landscape.

I agree with what you are saying here. Jews living in a modern world with differing culture, understanding of the world and science are going to relate very differently to Judaism than generations of the past. That cannot just be ignored.

 

[Caladan]

I agree with what you are saying here. Jews living in a modern world with differing culture, understanding of the world and science are going to relate very differently to Judaism than generations of the past. That cannot just be ignored.

We should hope so, otherwise we truly are no better than holy sheep who grotesquely mimic and romanticize the way we believe our forefathers of old lived like. I personally believe that it should be expected from any thinking Jew to have an honest and healthy reflection of Jewish history and purpose, draw constructive conclusions and mold Judaism into the relevant needs and circumstances of our time. There is no reason we should expect the norms of an advancing scientific, technological or social world to be able to happily conform with the cultural norms of the ancient Kingdom of Judah, or those of rabbinical Jews in Late Antiquity, or medieval Jews, or even close knit traditional Jewish communities in early modern Europe.

I would educate my children to love, appreciate, and understand Biblical literature. But I'd never educate them that today there is any reason for us to build a Third Temple for example, or to sacrifice rams in that temple. They will learn about the role of the Bible in our culture and humanity's heritage and history, they will learn the ideals of the Prophetic writings, and poetic and prosaic qualities of The Song of Songs, Psalms or Ecclesiastes. But they will never learn that today there is any priestly class that our society should conform to their legal interpretation of our people's faith or religion. Perhaps if this priestly class was honorable and educated it would be the case, but they are not. The rabbinical structure is considered to be the climax of corruption and high annoyance by the average Israeli Jew. Their petty standards are injected into our social affairs. Perhaps its high time to have multiple rabbinates to cover all streams of Judaism in Israel, because so far the orthodox are enforcing their norms on the secular and non orthodox. For example as long as the orthodox rabbinate control the marriage and conversion institution my wife and I have no desire to go through her conversion process, but if it would be reform we would positively do it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Parenthetically ...

Study traces Ashkenazi roots to European women who probably converted to Judaism

The genetic analysis traced the lineage of many Ashkenazi Jews to four maternal founders in Europe.​

Most Ashkenazi Jews are descendants of European women who converted to Judaism, possibly around the time of the early Roman empire, concludes a new genetic study that casts doubt on many prevailing theories about the origins of Ashkenazim.

The study, published Tuesday in the journal Nature Communications, analyzed samples of mitochondrial DNA, which is passed down only from the mother, taken from more than 3,500 people throughout the Near East, the Caucasus and Europe, including Ashkenazi Jews. The researchers found that more than 80 percent of the maternal lineages of Ashkenazi Jews could be traced to indigenous Europeans, with four maternal “founders” responsible for 40 percent. Although Jewish men may have migrated into Europe from Israel around 2,000 years ago, they brought few or no wives with them, according to the researchers, who suggest that the men married and converted European women, first along the Mediterranean and later in western and central Europe.

The study was conducted by Martin Richards of the University of Huddersfield in England, who led a team of researchers from Russia, the Czech Republic, Portugal and the United States. They examined mitochondrial DNA, which is contained in the cytoplasm of the egg. “Like Judaism, mitochondrial DNA is passed along the maternal line,” notes the report.

The finding flies in the face of previous research and the commonly accepted wisdom that European Ashkenazim are descended from ancestral mothers of Jews who left Israel and the Middle East some 2,000 years ago, or in later migrations. The study suggests instead that large numbers of European women converted to Judaism and points to the European women and the Jewish community of the early Roman Empire as the possible source of the Ashkenazi ancestors.

“These analyses suggest that the first major wave of assimilation probably took place in Mediterranean Europe, most likely in the Italian peninsula, with substantial further assimilation of minor founders in west/central Europe,” the study concluded.

The discovery also tends to debunk the theory that Ashkenazi Jews descend from the North Caucasus during the time of the Khazar empire, whose rulers turned to Judaism around the 10th century CE. The study found no maternal lineages that could be traced to the North Caucasus.

"These results point to a significant role for the conversion of women in the formation of Ashkenazi communities, and provide the foundation for a detailed reconstruction of Ashkenazi genealogical history," states the report. ...

- source

Just sayin' ...

 

[dantech]

Parenthetically ...

​

Just sayin' ...

I'm not sure what you're saying but we have no problem with mixed marriages if the person converts, and instills Judaism into his/her child.

 

[dantech]

I think that it's good that Jews view themselves as a people - not a religion. As do I. I am a Jew/Hebrew by ethnicity, but I adhert the ancient Canaanite faith.

What exactly does that entail?

 

[Moishe3rd]

Pray tell, what are the ancient scribbling of a Levantine scribe have to do with the idea of a Creator, or what such a creator desires from human beings? You took a giant leap right there.
I should equally refer to the Hammurabi, Hittite codex, or the decrees of Cyrus if ancient social norms have relevance to the mystery of God's existence, or Divine Will.

Really?
So you believe that the Laws of the Code of Hammurabi that proscribed harsh penalties such as death or dismemberment to peasants who who transgressed against nobles or the religious establishment but, proscribed ONLY monetary fines, if that, against the religious establishment and nobles who transgressed against peasants - to be the same level of justice as described in the Torah?
Wow.
Okay. Just like most things in This World, everyone's got an opinion. Gezunt Heit. You should live and be well.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm not sure what you're saying but we have no problem with mixed marriages if the person converts, and instills Judaism into his/her child.

I wonder if they were Orthodox conversions ...

 

[dantech]

I wonder if they were Orthodox conversions ...

I guess that depends. I have only seen Orthodox converts because of the community I live in. We're all Orthodox here. But let's just say I don't agree with those conversions where one spouse converts simply to get married by an Orthodox Rabbi, but keeps on celebrating Christmas and Easter.

 

[Tarheeler]

I have mixed feeling about both the study and mixed-faith marriages.

Personally, I have trouble fitting into a classification; I'm somewhere between Orthodox and Conservative and usually respond as "just Jewish" when some one asks. But the numbers don't lie, and people are trickling through the movements and eventually out of Judaism all together, and that is extremely saddening. I joined the Jewish people because of the spirituality, philosophy, questioning, and openness I found in Judaism. I can't tell you how many times I've had people who were born and raised as Jews ask me wide-eyed why I would ever subject myself to this religion; I just wish I could show them what I find so great and compelling about it that I risked ostracism and rejection from my family and friends to do it.

And I think that for many who leave Judaism, all they see is the the ritual and the rules. They don't see the history and the beauty that accompanies it, and they don't see the connection with God that it allows us. But I don't know what the solution is. I think education is an important part of it, but so is seeing Jews who are engaged and actively living a Jewish life. We need people who will nurture and guide our children instead of berating them or dismissing their questions with a blanket response of "because that is the way it is".

As for inter-faith marriages, it is a conundrum for me. I'm in one myself, as a result of conversion, but my wife follows no other religion and helps me to raise our children in a Jewish home. We have people who are in similar situations in our community, and we have homes with two religions being practiced. The only trend I can attest to in my community is that almost all children, regardless of whether their partents are both Jewish or not, are totally uninterested in Judaism and seem to fall into a black hole the morning after their bar/bat mitzvah.

 

[Caladan]

Really?
So you believe that the Laws of the Code of Hammurabi that proscribed harsh penalties such as death or dismemberment to peasants who who transgressed against nobles or the religious establishment but, proscribed ONLY monetary fines, if that, against the religious establishment and nobles who transgressed against peasants - to be the same level of justice as described in the Torah?
Wow.
Okay. Just like most things in This World, everyone's got an opinion. Gezunt Heit. You should live and be well.

The irony of this post is really entertaining. As Jews we should be humble to remember that for many centuries we lived under the grace, influence, or whims of great empires. We were a periphery to them, either vassals, or rebels. While we did leave an important literary, ideological and moral legacy from our ancient days, so did other greater civilizations around us. It's easy to selectively choose the 'good' passages from the Hebrew Bible, and the 'bad' passages from other ancient literary sources and to boast how great we are. But even our scriptures, the Bible would not be what it is without the influence of the literary accomplishments and traditions of the Near Eastern civilizations around us.

 

[Moishe3rd]

The irony of this post is really entertaining. As Jews we should be humble to remember that for many centuries we lived under the grace, influence, or whims of great empires. We were a periphery to them, either vassals, or rebels. While we did leave an important literary, ideological and moral legacy from our ancient days, so did other greater civilizations around us. It's easy to selectively choose the 'good' passages from the Hebrew Bible, and the 'bad' passages from other ancient literary sources and to boast how great we are. But even our scriptures, the Bible would not be what it is without the influence of the literary accomplishments and traditions of the Near Eastern civilizations around us.

I understand that you are restating your position that you do not believe that G-d gave His Jewish People the Torah but - "the irony?"
Could you elucidate on that point?

 

[Ben-Tanit]

What exactly does that entail?

Worshiping Canaanite gods and goddess' in the land of Canaan/Israel.

I wonder if they were Orthodox conversions ...

I don't care, as long as they preserve Jewish national identity.

 

[dantech]

Worshiping Canaanite gods and goddess' in the land of Canaan/Israel.

I actually never heard of a Canaanite religion today. Amazing how much I learn on these forums.
So you worship the same God as me, among others? Like Baal, Anath, etc?

 

[Ben-Tanit]

I actually never heard of a Canaanite religion today. Amazing how much I learn on these forums.
So you worship the same God as me, among others? Like Baal, Anath, etc?

No, I do not worship Yehovah, yet I worship Asherah (mainly), Tanit and Shalem.

I worship Asherah as the mother-goddess, goddess of the Earth.

Tanit as the goddess of Beauty and War (Yehovah is another god of War).

Shalem as the guardian of Jerusalem and the god of sun-down.

Although I recognize Yehovah as a god in the pantheon.

 

[dantech]

No, I do not worship Yehovah, yet I worship Asherah (mainly), Tanit and Shalem.

I worship Asherah as the mother-goddess, goddess of the Earth.

Tanit as the goddess of Beauty and War (Yehovah is another god of War).

Shalem as the guardian of Jerusalem and the god of sun-down.

Although I recognize Yehovah as a god in the pantheon.

Isn't "El Shaddai" the Father Lord or something like that in Canaanite?

 

[Ben-Tanit]

Isn't "El Shaddai" the Father Lord or something like that in Canaanite?

No, it's basically El Elyon (אל עליו&#1503, yet I worship the Asherah as the mother-goddess and my main goddess.

The Phoenicians worshiped Ashtoret as their main goddess. The Hebrews firstly Yehovah and Asherah together, then only Yehovah.

So your main god/goddess chooses you.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And there goes the thread ...