Physically Ill During Baptism

[Katzpur]

I think the child reaction's would mainly depend on the reaction of the adults involved. Most childern don't know how to emotionally react to a new situation and they look to see how adults are reacting to figure it out. However, since they cannot filter out strong emotions as easy as an adult, they can become overwhelmed and confused by emotions they don't understand yet. Perhaps an adult was crying (or near tears, or something similar ) at the event, and she picked up on that.

There are any number of reasons why the child could have been scared, but I don't think any of them had anything to do with her feeling that she was being "forced into a spirituality she knows nothing of."

 

[Jeremiahcp]

There are any number of reasons why the child could have been scared, but I don't think any of them had anything to do with her feeling that she was being "forced into a spirituality she knows nothing of."

I never said anything like that, and I agree with you. A child that young would not be able to comprehend such a complex thought.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

Ideologically - for Catholics - yes. I've been told by a priest, a Bishop, and now the Archbishop of Kansas City that baptism "marks" a soul as claimed by Jesus. For myself, right now as a professed Pagan, and even though I reject Christianity entirely, I am considered by the Church as a "lapsed Catholic".

It's ridiculous, but can be a social issue for some people.

Hmm that does sound quite interesting. What will happen if a Catholic converts to Satanism?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Same thing; they would still "belong to Jesus" in the eyes of the church, and hope that the "fear of hell" would convince them to repent and rejoin the fold.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

Same thing; they would still "belong to Jesus" in the eyes of the church, and hope that the "fear of hell" would convince them to repent and rejoin the fold.

All I see is that they use fear to control people.

 

[David T]

So things and people I disagree with don't make me feel ill. I can listen to Trump all day and may be angry, but I don't feel like I'm being hit with a flu of the soul. Well, I was just at a baptism for my SOs niece, and man do I feel sick. This little girl not only has no say, but she has no idea what's going on at all, no ability to question nor understand. Then the priest was talking about heaven and hell, just instilling this fear in the members of "remember, you could totally go to hell." Mixed with the hypocrisy of the other family involved, their horrible ethics, the very fact that this is an out of wedlock marriage, I'm surprised I didn't laugh out loud. Then the actual baptism, holding a child basically head lower than legs, her crying her eyes out in terror as she's forced into a spirituality she knows nothing of. I just couldn't handle it. I'm sworn to protect individual freedom as well as children themselves, and felt like I was witnessing this horrible ritual completely against the child's will. How in the world is this even legal, let alone moral?

I feel like that everyday I go to work..

 

[Etritonakin]

So things and people I disagree with don't make me feel ill. I can listen to Trump all day and may be angry, but I don't feel like I'm being hit with a flu of the soul. Well, I was just at a baptism for my SOs niece, and man do I feel sick. This little girl not only has no say, but she has no idea what's going on at all, no ability to question nor understand. Then the priest was talking about heaven and hell, just instilling this fear in the members of "remember, you could totally go to hell." Mixed with the hypocrisy of the other family involved, their horrible ethics, the very fact that this is an out of wedlock marriage, I'm surprised I didn't laugh out loud. Then the actual baptism, holding a child basically head lower than legs, her crying her eyes out in terror as she's forced into a spirituality she knows nothing of. I just couldn't handle it. I'm sworn to protect individual freedom as well as children themselves, and felt like I was witnessing this horrible ritual completely against the child's will. How in the world is this even legal, let alone moral?

The biblical "process" for baptism actually requires it to be preceded by repentance -which requires a fairly deep understanding of sin, the law, etc. -which technically requires that one has also actually lived long enough to do a bit of sinning -as baptism itself is for foregiveness of sins.

I think the idea of everyone being guilty of original sin -which really isn't biblical, either -led to baptism of young people. Some might think that people should be forgiven as soon as possible in case something happens and they go to hell, but, again -that's not biblical, either.

When the spirit of God was made widely available with the new covenant, repentance and baptism for remission of sins preceded the laying on of hands -at which point, if it was his decision (as God can know men's hearts), the spirit of God -which is first with one -would then be in one.

Though some believe it to be a separate person, it is defined in the bible as a spirit of power, love and of a sound mind -and is essentially access to an increasingly Godly perspective, understanding, power, love, etc.. by coupling man's spirit with that of God.
An understanding of that spirit should logically precede receiving it.
Some in the bible who were baptized for the remission of sins alone were baptized again after learning that the spirit of God could be received.

In page order, the spirit of God is first mentioned as the means by which God resurfaced the Earth, and secondly the means by which God granted one talents to work with gold, etc. (similar to downloading new skills in "The Matrix")

Anyway -the underlying intent might be good, but baptizing infants really doesn't accomplish anything.

After a baby is born, pointing out the situation leading up to the birth is pointless as well -though talking up the benefits of marriage might be helpful.

Many reactions to things which may not be "righteous" are harmful and do not promote righteousness.
Fear and real faith have nothing to do with each other -except the fear of the Lord, which is defined as hatred of evil (not hatred of people).
Scripture says there is a sorrow which leads to repentance, and a sorrow which leads to death.
Many are so mired down in guilt, fear, shame, etc. -some helped along by misguided ministers -that they are against themselves and self-improvement is hindered.

12 Cor 7:0 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

I feel like that everyday I go to work..

Not enjoying your job?

 

[Jumi]

I think your priorities are a bit wrong here. The child (most likely) isn't harmed in anyway during baptism. If she or he is, it's during the time she is indoctrinated(if she is).

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

I think your priorities are a bit wrong here. The child (most likely) isn't harmed in anyway during baptism. If she or he is, it's during the time she is indoctrinated(if she is).

What if the child doesn't know anything about the baptism?

 

[Katzpur]

I never said anything like that, and I agree with you. A child that young would not be able to comprehend such a complex thought.

I wasn't implying that you did. I was referring to the OP. It looked to me like that's what he was suggesting.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

I wasn't implying that you did. I was referring to the OP. It looked to me like that's what he was suggesting.

I figured that was prob. what you meant, and really I just wanted to clarify for other readers my position.

 

[David T]

Not enjoying your job?

I actually love my job it's the best in the world

Not enjoying your job?

I love my work it's awesome can hardly wait to get there in the morning. The original posting is about what is normal and the fantasy of freedom and that somehow the people are forcing upon the child a something that is not the choice of the child. I have the perfect job for me I am a carpenter. It just gets muddled up between fellow carpenters, architects, engineers, interior design, owners,sub contractors, suppliers, weather, banks, government(local,state,federal) and lawyers. After sending out an RFI on where to place the espresso machine in the work area, and 147 email responses with no resolution one either cries like a baby (many do) or laughes!!!! My title is "more than a carpenter" but really I am just a carpenter, always have been because it's an archetype from the beginning till the end of time. Stuck no freedom from it at all love it.

 

[Jumi]

What if the child doesn't know anything about the baptism?

Then no harm done?

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

I actually love my job it's the best in the world

Nice. My job is that I am a stay at home mom and I am a housewife. I stay home and take care of the little one while my husband works and makes money for the family.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

Then no harm done?

For a child to not know what is going on is well not cool at all. The child needs to know why they are getting baptised for.

 

[David T]

Nice. My job is that I am a stay at home mom and I am a housewife. I stay home and take care of the little one while my husband works and makes money for the family.

Exactly my point!!! In Taoism there is a saying, at least I think it's Taoism, the baby comes into the world crying and everyone is smiling the baby leaves the world smiling, and everyone is crying. I like that one. And we all have to put up with our parents dysfunctions till we realize the Apple didn't fall far from the tree no matter how far I ran!!!! Like being OCD about being ocd.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

And we all have to put up with our parents dysfunctions

I couldn't really stand living with my step parents. It was like living in an insane asylum is that house.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

A little water on the child's head doesn't hurt the child and it keeps all of the silly adults happy thinking they did some good for the child.
You may be overreacting a bit.

From the child's point of view, I tend to see it this way too. But I can empathise with the OP. I feel very uncomfortable watching parents and other significant people in a child's life make vows they have no intention of keeping.

Many times (4 or 5?) I've turned down becoming a godparent, since the vows required are not something I can honestly swear.

Of those, a couple understood totally, the others were confused since the vows are 'just words anyway...Not like we would hold you to them.' Or themselves, I guess.

 

[allfoak]

From the child's point of view, I tend to see it this way too. But I can empathise with the OP. I feel very uncomfortable watching parents and other significant people in a child's life make vows they have no intention of keeping.

Many times (4 or 5?) I've turned down becoming a godparent, since the vows required are not something I can honestly swear.

Of those, a couple understood totally, the others were confused since the vows are 'just words anyway...Not like we would hold you to them.' Or themselves, I guess.

You are right.
I should empathize more with @1137 .
I am sorry dude.
There was a time when i would have felt the same way.
It is sometimes hard to see children being subjected to something that seems to be not only unnecessary but potentially psychologically harmful.
I was baptized as a child, had god parents and all of that.
I do not remember the baptism at all.