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Physicists predict Earth will become a chaotic world, with dire consequences

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
What should be done about "climate chaos?!" OMG, it's so obvious, pay more taxes! If you can't pay now, pay ASAP. Thank you Greta, we love you.

Let's back this up.

With what evidence do you have they are "doubling taxes".
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
"If the Earth System gets into the region of chaotic behavior, we will lose all hope of somehow fixing the problem."
Humans aren't just making Earth warmer, they are making the climate chaotic, a stark new study suggests.


The new research, which was posted April 21 to the preprint database arXiv (opens in new tab), draws a broad and general picture of the full potential impact of human activity on the climate. And the picture isn't pretty.

While the study doesn't present a complete simulation of a climate model, it does paint a broad sketch of where we're heading if we don't curtail climate change and our unchecked use of fossil fuels, according to the study authors, scientists in the Department of Physics and Astronomy at the University of Porto in Portugal. .


"The implications of climate change are well known (droughts, heat waves, extreme phenomena, etc)," study researcher Orfeu Bertolami told Live Science in an email. "If the Earth System gets into the region of chaotic behavior, we will lose all hope of somehow fixing the problem."

This is a science magic trick driven by politicians. Science is not self sufficient, when it comes to resources. Science is dependent and beholden to others, such as government, industry, military and private donations. Almost no scientist will use their own money to do science. About 99.99% of all scientists are paid to do science. Politics of some sort; company will play a role in who and what gets the money, as well as the line that has to be towed to keep the gravy train on track.

This dependency of science for its resources, makes them vulnerable to a quid pro quod system. For example, if you were a scientist working for a tobacco company, your pay check and your hopes for career advancement, depend on you doing good science for your employer. However, since tobacco is what pays the bills, you will need to stay away from areas of science that might hurt your employers. If you decided to do good science that shows the down side of tobacco, you may be ask to find a new job, unless you bury the study. The quid pro quo requires you need to do good science, but it needs to support the hand that feeds you. One must choose their battles carefully.

In the case of climate change, governments all over the world are pumping a lot of money into this one area of science. The quid pro quo trick involves doing good science, but only taking into account short term data, from about 1880 to the present, so all conclusion can appear valid, due to a data time bias.

For example, when they say this was the hottest year on record, the official record keeping only began in about 1880. If 1860 was hotter, this data will be ignored since it is not official data. The magic trick is to do good science with only the data defined by a time based semantic game.

As far all the climate changes we now see, this is quite normal. As proof, Mark Twain is quoted to have witnessed 136 types of weather in 24 hours in New England in the spring in the 1870's. It appears weather is getting more stable, since I never saw that much change in any day of the spring of 2020. But his observations were before1876, and is not part of the new official record.

Whenever anyone write about weather in New England; the most common season to look at is either fall or spring. Mark Twain did a fabulous job presenting his speech New England Weather delivered on December 22, 1876 in New England Society’s Seventy-First Annual Dinner, New York City. The structure of his words captivated his audience to the point the speech is still discussed today.

As Mark Twain said, “If you don't like New England weather, wait a few minutes.” As some one has so aptly put it: “If you don't like the present brand of Nebraska weather just wait fifteen minutes and there will be a different kind of weather.”


As an analogy, Olympic sport records, only take into account the modern Olympics which started about 1896. If there were humans who could throw a spear or javelin farther, in 100 AD, when war was a daily occupation, this record is not included in this current record book, since the data set is only limited to the data range from 1896 to the present. If you limit the data in time scale, than any good scientist, trying to draw their best conclusions, can give you the conclusions you need. This is a magic trick.

If you look at the geological data, which dates back to 1 billion years ago, instead of 1880, what we see today is not unique. The earth warmed and cooled many times and life always seems to bounce back. The magic trick is designed to ignore this long term geological data and only fixate on data from about 1880 since this type of blip, in the long term data curve, seen hundred of times in the long term data, can serve a purpose.

Science of climate change is having a hay day with more resources going into weather and climate sciences than ever before. Nobody wants to upset the gravy train; good careers and new labs. Science is doing the best job with the data time restriction. Beyonds that is called anecdotal evidence. However, if anyone who points this out, they will be boycotted, to keep the rest of the scientists in line. I take no resources so I can speak freely since I am not part of the quid pro quo. I prefer the truth win in the end.

If we compare the modern data, to the longer term geological data, this period of change is normal for the earth and has occurred without man, many times. Not too long ago, the earth was warm enough to where tropical plants grew close to the Arctic circle. The earth them cooled with glaciers all the way to New York City. Then over a 1000 miles of glaciers melted before science started the official record. We come in late and pretend today is all that matters.

I remember when the stage was being set for this magic trick. There was political activism against any scientist who dared question global warming a decade of so, ago. Activists would kill careers for bucking the staging. They needed all audience on one side of the stage, so the trick could work. Only a few tenured professors had the job security to fight the scam, longer.

Water is the most significant green house gas on earth, but that was not allowed as part of the analysis since water could not be overly simplified, like CO2 and other traces gases for the model. Science is about looking under all rocks and not just the ones specified by the money givers to set the stage. The resistance paid off and the powers to be had to rebrand minimal global warming, into climate change, since day to day conditioning of the masses could create more support, then annual computer models that were always too high.

The new stage was set; consensus, similar to how when an airliner crash will be treated by the media, until we get the impression all air travel is very risky. But, I figured out the data time limit used to do the magic trick. This can counter the media fear mongering conditioning that is harder to control. The data time limit truth will set you free.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This is a science magic trick driven by politicians. Science is not self sufficient, when it comes to resources. Science is dependent and beholden to others, such as government, industry, military and private donations. Almost no scientist will use their own money to do science. About 99.99% of all scientists are paid to do science. Politics of some sort; company will play a role in who and what gets the money, as well as the line that has to be towed to keep the gravy train on track.

This dependency of science for its resources, makes them vulnerable to a quid pro quod system. For example, if you were a scientist working for a tobacco company, your pay check and your hopes for career advancement, depend on you doing good science for your employer. However, since tobacco is what pays the bills, you will need to stay away from areas of science that might hurt your employers. If you decided to do good science that shows the down side of tobacco, you may be ask to find a new job, unless you bury the study. The quid pro quo requires you need to do good science, but it needs to support the hand that feeds you. One must choose their battles carefully.

In the case of climate change, governments all over the world are pumping a lot of money into this one area of science. The quid pro quo trick involves doing good science, but only taking into account short term data, from about 1880 to the present, so all conclusion can appear valid, due to a data time bias.

For example, when they say this was the hottest year on record, the official record keeping only began in about 1880. If 1860 was hotter, this data will be ignored since it is not official data. The magic trick is to do good science with only the data defined by a time based semantic game.

As far all the climate changes we now see, this is quite normal. As proof, Mark Twain is quoted to have witnessed 136 types of weather in 24 hours in New England in the spring in the 1870's. It appears weather is getting more stable, since I never saw that much change in any day of the spring of 2020. But his observations were before1876, and is not part of the new official record.

Whenever anyone write about weather in New England; the most common season to look at is either fall or spring. Mark Twain did a fabulous job presenting his speech New England Weather delivered on December 22, 1876 in New England Society’s Seventy-First Annual Dinner, New York City. The structure of his words captivated his audience to the point the speech is still discussed today.

As Mark Twain said, “If you don't like New England weather, wait a few minutes.” As some one has so aptly put it: “If you don't like the present brand of Nebraska weather just wait fifteen minutes and there will be a different kind of weather.”


As an analogy, Olympic sport records, only take into account the modern Olympics which started about 1896. If there were humans who could throw a spear or javelin farther, in 100 AD, when war was a daily occupation, this record is not included in this current record book, since the data set is only limited to the data range from 1896 to the present. If you limit the data in time scale, than any good scientist, trying to draw their best conclusions, can give you the conclusions you need. This is a magic trick.

If you look at the geological data, which dates back to 1 billion years ago, instead of 1880, what we see today is not unique. The earth warmed and cooled many times and life always seems to bounce back. The magic trick is designed to ignore this long term geological data and only fixate on data from about 1880 since this type of blip, in the long term data curve, seen hundred of times in the long term data, can serve a purpose.

Science of climate change is having a hay day with more resources going into weather and climate sciences than ever before. Nobody wants to upset the gravy train; good careers and new labs. Science is doing the best job with the data time restriction. Beyonds that is called anecdotal evidence. However, if anyone who points this out, they will be boycotted, to keep the rest of the scientists in line. I take no resources so I can speak freely since I am not part of the quid pro quo. I prefer the truth win in the end.

If we compare the modern data, to the longer term geological data, this period of change is normal for the earth and has occurred without man, many times. Not too long ago, the earth was warm enough to where tropical plants grew close to the Arctic circle. The earth them cooled with glaciers all the way to New York City. Then over a 1000 miles of glaciers melted before science started the official record. We come in late and pretend today is all that matters.

I remember when the stage was being set for this magic trick. There was political activism against any scientist who dared question global warming a decade of so, ago. Activists would kill careers for bucking the staging. They needed all audience on one side of the stage, so the trick could work. Only a few tenured professors had the job security to fight the scam, longer.

Water is the most significant green house gas on earth, but that was not allowed as part of the analysis since water could not be overly simplified, like CO2 and other traces gases for the model. Science is about looking under all rocks and not just the ones specified by the money givers to set the stage. The resistance paid off and the powers to be had to rebrand minimal global warming, into climate change, since day to day conditioning of the masses could create more support, then annual computer models that were always too high.

The new stage was set; consensus, similar to how when an airliner crash will be treated by the media, until we get the impression all air travel is very risky. But, I figured out the data time limit used to do the magic trick. This can counter the media fear mongering conditioning that is harder to control. The data time limit truth will set you free.
TLDR
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
This is a science magic trick driven by politicians. Science is not self sufficient, when it comes to resources. Science is dependent and beholden to others, such as government, industry, military and private donations. Almost no scientist will use their own money to do science. About 99.99% of all scientists are paid to do science. Politics of some sort; company will play a role in who and what gets the money, as well as the line that has to be towed to keep the gravy train on track.

This dependency of science for its resources, makes them vulnerable to a quid pro quod system. For example, if you were a scientist working for a tobacco company, your pay check and your hopes for career advancement, depend on you doing good science for your employer. However, since tobacco is what pays the bills, you will need to stay away from areas of science that might hurt your employers. If you decided to do good science that shows the down side of tobacco, you may be ask to find a new job, unless you bury the study. The quid pro quo requires you need to do good science, but it needs to support the hand that feeds you. One must choose their battles carefully.

In the case of climate change, governments all over the world are pumping a lot of money into this one area of science. The quid pro quo trick involves doing good science, but only taking into account short term data, from about 1880 to the present, so all conclusion can appear valid, due to a data time bias.

For example, when they say this was the hottest year on record, the official record keeping only began in about 1880. If 1860 was hotter, this data will be ignored since it is not official data. The magic trick is to do good science with only the data defined by a time based semantic game.

As far all the climate changes we now see, this is quite normal. As proof, Mark Twain is quoted to have witnessed 136 types of weather in 24 hours in New England in the spring in the 1870's. It appears weather is getting more stable, since I never saw that much change in any day of the spring of 2020. But his observations were before1876, and is not part of the new official record.

Whenever anyone write about weather in New England; the most common season to look at is either fall or spring. Mark Twain did a fabulous job presenting his speech New England Weather delivered on December 22, 1876 in New England Society’s Seventy-First Annual Dinner, New York City. The structure of his words captivated his audience to the point the speech is still discussed today.

As Mark Twain said, “If you don't like New England weather, wait a few minutes.” As some one has so aptly put it: “If you don't like the present brand of Nebraska weather just wait fifteen minutes and there will be a different kind of weather.”


As an analogy, Olympic sport records, only take into account the modern Olympics which started about 1896. If there were humans who could throw a spear or javelin farther, in 100 AD, when war was a daily occupation, this record is not included in this current record book, since the data set is only limited to the data range from 1896 to the present. If you limit the data in time scale, than any good scientist, trying to draw their best conclusions, can give you the conclusions you need. This is a magic trick.

If you look at the geological data, which dates back to 1 billion years ago, instead of 1880, what we see today is not unique. The earth warmed and cooled many times and life always seems to bounce back. The magic trick is designed to ignore this long term geological data and only fixate on data from about 1880 since this type of blip, in the long term data curve, seen hundred of times in the long term data, can serve a purpose.

Science of climate change is having a hay day with more resources going into weather and climate sciences than ever before. Nobody wants to upset the gravy train; good careers and new labs. Science is doing the best job with the data time restriction. Beyonds that is called anecdotal evidence. However, if anyone who points this out, they will be boycotted, to keep the rest of the scientists in line. I take no resources so I can speak freely since I am not part of the quid pro quo. I prefer the truth win in the end.

If we compare the modern data, to the longer term geological data, this period of change is normal for the earth and has occurred without man, many times. Not too long ago, the earth was warm enough to where tropical plants grew close to the Arctic circle. The earth them cooled with glaciers all the way to New York City. Then over a 1000 miles of glaciers melted before science started the official record. We come in late and pretend today is all that matters.

I remember when the stage was being set for this magic trick. There was political activism against any scientist who dared question global warming a decade of so, ago. Activists would kill careers for bucking the staging. They needed all audience on one side of the stage, so the trick could work. Only a few tenured professors had the job security to fight the scam, longer.

Water is the most significant green house gas on earth, but that was not allowed as part of the analysis since water could not be overly simplified, like CO2 and other traces gases for the model. Science is about looking under all rocks and not just the ones specified by the money givers to set the stage. The resistance paid off and the powers to be had to rebrand minimal global warming, into climate change, since day to day conditioning of the masses could create more support, then annual computer models that were always too high.

The new stage was set; consensus, similar to how when an airliner crash will be treated by the media, until we get the impression all air travel is very risky. But, I figured out the data time limit used to do the magic trick. This can counter the media fear mongering conditioning that is harder to control. The data time limit truth will set you free.


We can measure average temperature in the past. Or did you not realize that?
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This is a science magic trick driven by politicians. Science is not self sufficient, when it comes to resources. Science is dependent and beholden to others, such as government, industry, military and private donations. Almost no scientist will use their own money to do science. About 99.99% of all scientists are paid to do science. Politics of some sort; company will play a role in who and what gets the money, as well as the line that has to be towed to keep the gravy train on track.

This dependency of science for its resources, makes them vulnerable to a quid pro quod system. For example, if you were a scientist working for a tobacco company, your pay check and your hopes for career advancement, depend on you doing good science for your employer. However, since tobacco is what pays the bills, you will need to stay away from areas of science that might hurt your employers. If you decided to do good science that shows the down side of tobacco, you may be ask to find a new job, unless you bury the study. The quid pro quo requires you need to do good science, but it needs to support the hand that feeds you. One must choose their battles carefully.

In the case of climate change, governments all over the world are pumping a lot of money into this one area of science. The quid pro quo trick involves doing good science, but only taking into account short term data, from about 1880 to the present, so all conclusion can appear valid, due to a data time bias.

For example, when they say this was the hottest year on record, the official record keeping only began in about 1880. If 1860 was hotter, this data will be ignored since it is not official data. The magic trick is to do good science with only the data defined by a time based semantic game.

As far all the climate changes we now see, this is quite normal. As proof, Mark Twain is quoted to have witnessed 136 types of weather in 24 hours in New England in the spring in the 1870's. It appears weather is getting more stable, since I never saw that much change in any day of the spring of 2020. But his observations were before1876, and is not part of the new official record.

Whenever anyone write about weather in New England; the most common season to look at is either fall or spring. Mark Twain did a fabulous job presenting his speech New England Weather delivered on December 22, 1876 in New England Society’s Seventy-First Annual Dinner, New York City. The structure of his words captivated his audience to the point the speech is still discussed today.

As Mark Twain said, “If you don't like New England weather, wait a few minutes.” As some one has so aptly put it: “If you don't like the present brand of Nebraska weather just wait fifteen minutes and there will be a different kind of weather.”


As an analogy, Olympic sport records, only take into account the modern Olympics which started about 1896. If there were humans who could throw a spear or javelin farther, in 100 AD, when war was a daily occupation, this record is not included in this current record book, since the data set is only limited to the data range from 1896 to the present. If you limit the data in time scale, than any good scientist, trying to draw their best conclusions, can give you the conclusions you need. This is a magic trick.

If you look at the geological data, which dates back to 1 billion years ago, instead of 1880, what we see today is not unique. The earth warmed and cooled many times and life always seems to bounce back. The magic trick is designed to ignore this long term geological data and only fixate on data from about 1880 since this type of blip, in the long term data curve, seen hundred of times in the long term data, can serve a purpose.

Science of climate change is having a hay day with more resources going into weather and climate sciences than ever before. Nobody wants to upset the gravy train; good careers and new labs. Science is doing the best job with the data time restriction. Beyonds that is called anecdotal evidence. However, if anyone who points this out, they will be boycotted, to keep the rest of the scientists in line. I take no resources so I can speak freely since I am not part of the quid pro quo. I prefer the truth win in the end.

If we compare the modern data, to the longer term geological data, this period of change is normal for the earth and has occurred without man, many times. Not too long ago, the earth was warm enough to where tropical plants grew close to the Arctic circle. The earth them cooled with glaciers all the way to New York City. Then over a 1000 miles of glaciers melted before science started the official record. We come in late and pretend today is all that matters.

I remember when the stage was being set for this magic trick. There was political activism against any scientist who dared question global warming a decade of so, ago. Activists would kill careers for bucking the staging. They needed all audience on one side of the stage, so the trick could work. Only a few tenured professors had the job security to fight the scam, longer.

Water is the most significant green house gas on earth, but that was not allowed as part of the analysis since water could not be overly simplified, like CO2 and other traces gases for the model. Science is about looking under all rocks and not just the ones specified by the money givers to set the stage. The resistance paid off and the powers to be had to rebrand minimal global warming, into climate change, since day to day conditioning of the masses could create more support, then annual computer models that were always too high.

The new stage was set; consensus, similar to how when an airliner crash will be treated by the media, until we get the impression all air travel is very risky. But, I figured out the data time limit used to do the magic trick. This can counter the media fear mongering conditioning that is harder to control. The data time limit truth will set you free.
I can read it now.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This is a science magic trick driven by politicians. Science is not self sufficient, when it comes to resources. Science is dependent and beholden to others, such as government, industry, military and private donations. Almost no scientist will use their own money to do science. About 99.99% of all scientists are paid to do science. Politics of some sort; company will play a role in who and what gets the money, as well as the line that has to be towed to keep the gravy train on track.

This dependency of science for its resources, makes them vulnerable to a quid pro quod system. For example, if you were a scientist working for a tobacco company, your pay check and your hopes for career advancement, depend on you doing good science for your employer. However, since tobacco is what pays the bills, you will need to stay away from areas of science that might hurt your employers. If you decided to do good science that shows the down side of tobacco, you may be ask to find a new job, unless you bury the study. The quid pro quo requires you need to do good science, but it needs to support the hand that feeds you. One must choose their battles carefully.

In the case of climate change, governments all over the world are pumping a lot of money into this one area of science. The quid pro quo trick involves doing good science, but only taking into account short term data, from about 1880 to the present, so all conclusion can appear valid, due to a data time bias.

For example, when they say this was the hottest year on record, the official record keeping only began in about 1880. If 1860 was hotter, this data will be ignored since it is not official data. The magic trick is to do good science with only the data defined by a time based semantic game.

As far all the climate changes we now see, this is quite normal. As proof, Mark Twain is quoted to have witnessed 136 types of weather in 24 hours in New England in the spring in the 1870's. It appears weather is getting more stable, since I never saw that much change in any day of the spring of 2020. But his observations were before1876, and is not part of the new official record.

Whenever anyone write about weather in New England; the most common season to look at is either fall or spring. Mark Twain did a fabulous job presenting his speech New England Weather delivered on December 22, 1876 in New England Society’s Seventy-First Annual Dinner, New York City. The structure of his words captivated his audience to the point the speech is still discussed today.

As Mark Twain said, “If you don't like New England weather, wait a few minutes.” As some one has so aptly put it: “If you don't like the present brand of Nebraska weather just wait fifteen minutes and there will be a different kind of weather.”


As an analogy, Olympic sport records, only take into account the modern Olympics which started about 1896. If there were humans who could throw a spear or javelin farther, in 100 AD, when war was a daily occupation, this record is not included in this current record book, since the data set is only limited to the data range from 1896 to the present. If you limit the data in time scale, than any good scientist, trying to draw their best conclusions, can give you the conclusions you need. This is a magic trick.

If you look at the geological data, which dates back to 1 billion years ago, instead of 1880, what we see today is not unique. The earth warmed and cooled many times and life always seems to bounce back. The magic trick is designed to ignore this long term geological data and only fixate on data from about 1880 since this type of blip, in the long term data curve, seen hundred of times in the long term data, can serve a purpose.

Science of climate change is having a hay day with more resources going into weather and climate sciences than ever before. Nobody wants to upset the gravy train; good careers and new labs. Science is doing the best job with the data time restriction. Beyonds that is called anecdotal evidence. However, if anyone who points this out, they will be boycotted, to keep the rest of the scientists in line. I take no resources so I can speak freely since I am not part of the quid pro quo. I prefer the truth win in the end.

If we compare the modern data, to the longer term geological data, this period of change is normal for the earth and has occurred without man, many times. Not too long ago, the earth was warm enough to where tropical plants grew close to the Arctic circle. The earth them cooled with glaciers all the way to New York City. Then over a 1000 miles of glaciers melted before science started the official record. We come in late and pretend today is all that matters.

I remember when the stage was being set for this magic trick. There was political activism against any scientist who dared question global warming a decade of so, ago. Activists would kill careers for bucking the staging. They needed all audience on one side of the stage, so the trick could work. Only a few tenured professors had the job security to fight the scam, longer.

Water is the most significant green house gas on earth, but that was not allowed as part of the analysis since water could not be overly simplified, like CO2 and other traces gases for the model. Science is about looking under all rocks and not just the ones specified by the money givers to set the stage. The resistance paid off and the powers to be had to rebrand minimal global warming, into climate change, since day to day conditioning of the masses could create more support, then annual computer models that were always too high.

The new stage was set; consensus, similar to how when an airliner crash will be treated by the media, until we get the impression all air travel is very risky. But, I figured out the data time limit used to do the magic trick. This can counter the media fear mongering conditioning that is harder to control. The data time limit truth will set you free.

When you work in the industry, you do science for money. The Universities are somewhat detached from that.

The data where they start measuring comes about naturally.

You seem to be using a lot of sleight of hand.

This 100,000s of years cycle is going up so rapidly now we attribute it to humans.

Water is a greenhouse gas because it contains two elements but it does not affect the temperature.

I really think you are going after the low-hanging fruit and not presenting anything new here.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
"If the Earth System gets into the region of chaotic behavior, we will lose all hope of somehow fixing the problem."
Humans aren't just making Earth warmer, they are making the climate chaotic, a stark new study suggests.


The new research, which was posted April 21 to the preprint database arXiv (opens in new tab), draws a broad and general picture of the full potential impact of human activity on the climate. And the picture isn't pretty.

While the study doesn't present a complete simulation of a climate model, it does paint a broad sketch of where we're heading if we don't curtail climate change and our unchecked use of fossil fuels, according to the study authors, scientists in the Department of Physics and Astronomy at the University of Porto in Portugal. .


"The implications of climate change are well known (droughts, heat waves, extreme phenomena, etc)," study researcher Orfeu Bertolami told Live Science in an email. "If the Earth System gets into the region of chaotic behavior, we will lose all hope of somehow fixing the problem."

The focus is/has been on making profit.
Until that is no longer priority not much will change.
Who knows, we may have already passed the tipping point. Only time well tell.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The focus is/has been on making profit.
Until that is no longer priority not much will change.
Who knows, we may have already passed the tipping point. Only time well tell.
What I always say to that is that there's always more profit to be made in consuming more energy than conserving it.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
When you work in the industry, you do science for money. The Universities are somewhat detached from that.

The data where they start measuring comes about naturally.

You seem to be using a lot of sleight of hand.

This 100,000s of years cycle is going up so rapidly now we attribute it to humans.

Water is a greenhouse gas because it contains two elements but it does not affect the temperature.

I really think you are going after the low-hanging fruit and not presenting anything new here.
Water is a greenhouse gas and does affect the temperature. Unlike CO2 it is not "forcing". Water can quickly come out of the atmosphere. But since carbon dioxide raises the base temperature it also therefore increases the amount of water vapor.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Water is a greenhouse gas and does affect the temperature. Unlike CO2 it is not "forcing". Water can quickly come out of the atmosphere. But since carbon dioxide raises the base temperature it also therefore increases the amount of water vapor.

The time span of the data being used to draw our conclusion impacts the conclusions. The wider the time span, the more data, the better the conclusions. As an example, say a new person comes to work, which nobody knows, except what we see today, forward. There is no way to fully understand that person without knowing some of their past, since the past often sets the stage for life.

That mystery person may seem very nice and accommodating. It may not be clear that he/she is actually being passive aggressive out of stress. In your imagination you may assume a happy childhood which allows you to accommodate your own theory. But if we knew more of their data such as childhood data we can verify this or have the fuel to change the theory.

But if I tell you, you can only use the data collected since he started work, then a consensus may form based on that time data restriction; best possible conclusions for just that data set. This is how the magic trick works and can get full cooperation with honest intent.

Another analogy is being on a jury. You will hear all types of testimony; data. Before jury deliberations, the judge tells you that your job is to only consider a subset of the evidence, since some was tainted due to legal technicalities. The guilty charge with all the data, may changer to innocent based on less data.

The geological long term time data, show that the earth can do what we see, today, since it did this many times. We have been on a warming trend since the last ice age. The manmade climate change data is an isolated event for the earth. One possible occurrence of a phenomena is not enough to be so certain, if one is playing the rules of the philosophy of science. Politics has a different set of rules than science.

Without a second occurrence, how do we know this is not a magic trick? And wouldn't natural data with many occurrences be useful to make that determination? The judge appears to be advising the science jury to ignore this latter data and draw the best conclusion with one occurrence, even using only data since 1880. The rest of the data, pretend you never heard it.

Say we have a drought and my large track of swamp land now is dry with green vegetation. If I use the same procedure as climate science, I can say based on the real time data, this dry green land will be good for building a new subdivision. Most people will not just accept this one occurrence of my dry swamp as the new rule going forward. They will go back further in time and see this area is subject to flooding and drought, unless told by a judge to ignore this and assume now is the only time you can consider. Now I have no guilt or liability selling any of my dry swamp land.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The time span of the data being used to draw our conclusion impacts the conclusions. The wider the time span, the more data, the better the conclusions. As an example, say a new person comes to work, which nobody knows, except what we see today, forward. There is no way to fully understand that person without knowing some of their past, since the past often sets the stage for life.

That mystery person may seem very nice and accommodating. It may not be clear that he/she is actually being passive aggressive out of stress. In your imagination you may assume a happy childhood which allows you to accommodate your own theory. But if we knew more of their data such as childhood data we can verify this or have the fuel to change the theory.

But if I tell you, you can only use the data collected since he started work, then a consensus may form based on that time data restriction; best possible conclusions for just that data set. This is how the magic trick works and can get full cooperation with honest intent.

Another analogy is being on a jury. You will hear all types of testimony; data. Before jury deliberations, the judge tells you that your job is to only consider a subset of the evidence, since some was tainted due to legal technicalities. The guilty charge with all the data, may changer to innocent based on less data.

The geological long term time data, show that the earth can do what we see, today, since it did this many times. We have been on a warming trend since the last ice age. The manmade climate change data is an isolated event for the earth. One possible occurrence of a phenomena is not enough to be so certain, if one is playing the rules of the philosophy of science. Politics has a different set of rules than science.

Without a second occurrence, how do we know this is not a magic trick? And wouldn't natural data with many occurrences be useful to make that determination? The judge appears to be advising the science jury to ignore this latter data and draw the best conclusion with one occurrence, even using only data since 1880. The rest of the data, pretend you never heard it.

Say we have a drought and my large track of swamp land now is dry with green vegetation. If I use the same procedure as climate science, I can say based on the real time data, this dry green land will be good for building a new subdivision. Most people will not just accept this one occurrence of my dry swamp as the new rule going forward. They will go back further in time and see this area is subject to flooding and drought, unless told by a judge to ignore this and assume now is the only time you can consider. Now I have no guilt or liability selling any of my dry swamp land.
There is no "magic trick'. Now you may not understand how they gather data, that is fine. Then you should be asking questions. The long term geological data shows that what is happening now has always caused mass extinctions in the past and in many ways what is happening now is unprecedented. We know that the Earth is warming and we know the cause. We also know what has to be done. If you do not understand something there is no shame in asking questions. There should be shame in science denial that puts the lives of others at risk.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
I am not questioning the climate science, other than which time element is being used for the data analysis. How can anyone make a claim, like the hottest July on record, when geological data has records that break that record? Science fails to set which record straight, since a crooked record is needed. There is too much denial connected to the geological data.

One way to get around this geological record is to speak in terms of two different data sets. The buzz words, "on record", by definition, now only gets to mean the1880 starting record book, since this better fits the needed narrative.

Geological evidence found tropical plants in northern Canada close to the Arctic Circle. The modern earth is no way even close to this, even if we claim the hottest summer based on the limited record data set. Why isn't science clarifying the record or which record?

This is a type of science magic trick, since the audience is led to assume all the data is being used and not just an official record book. How many think the earth has never been warmer?

The fear mongering is also part of this trick. Fear makes your brain become narrow in terms of reason and perception. Fear is connected to fight or flight and needs quick decisions to appease fear, as fast as possible. Mr Spock tells us to shut off your emotions especially the stronger ones, like fear, or else you will lose your ability to be rational and may settle for a quick fix that is useless and dangerous even if it appeases short term fear.

Magic will use science and technology to create an illusion that can make the audience believe, with their own eyes, that the laws of physics can be broken. We will tell the audience that we will levitate our lovely assistant, and gravity no longer applies. If seeing is believing, then you will need to believe, right?

This tricks will take technology like like a boon, harness and tethers. We will also need to sit in the audience to see if we can see the harness or ropes, and if so, we may need to blend them into the background, even better. This trick will also take practice, by our lovely assistant, being lifted and moved about the stage, until her motion is smooth and natural like a leaf in the wind.

The trick also requires knowing the science of human nature and the limits of human vision. This may require we group the audience a certain way to reduce any give away at odd angles.

This is why anyone who is not with the climate trick is not allowed to sit where they want. The term denier was the psychology part of the trick, since many people, like in the emperor's new clothes, will not wish to be out of style but will want to see.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I am not questioning the climate science, other than which time element is being used for the data analysis. How can anyone make a claim, like the hottest July on record, when geological data has records that break that record? Science fails to set which record straight, since a crooked record is needed. There is too much denial connected to the geological data.

One way to get around this geological record is to speak in terms of two different data sets. The buzz words, "on record", by definition, now only gets to mean the1880 starting record book, since this better fits the needed narrative.

Geological evidence found tropical plants in northern Canada close to the Arctic Circle. The modern earth is no way even close to this, even if we claim the hottest summer based on the limited record data set. Why isn't science clarifying the record or which record?

This is a type of science magic trick, since the audience is led to assume all the data is being used and not just an official record book. How many think the earth has never been warmer?

The fear mongering is also part of this trick. Fear makes your brain become narrow in terms of reason and perception. Fear is connected to fight or flight and needs quick decisions to appease fear, as fast as possible. Mr Spock tells us to shut off your emotions especially the stronger ones, like fear, or else you will lose your ability to be rational and may settle for a quick fix that is useless and dangerous even if it appeases short term fear.

Magic will use science and technology to create an illusion that can make the audience believe, with their own eyes, that the laws of physics can be broken. We will tell the audience that we will levitate our lovely assistant, and gravity no longer applies. If seeing is believing, then you will need to believe, right?

This tricks will take technology like like a boon, harness and tethers. We will also need to sit in the audience to see if we can see the harness or ropes, and if so, we may need to blend them into the background, even better. This trick will also take practice, by our lovely assistant, being lifted and moved about the stage, until her motion is smooth and natural like a leaf in the wind.

The trick also requires knowing the science of human nature and the limits of human vision. This may require we group the audience a certain way to reduce any give away at odd angles.

This is why anyone who is not with the climate trick is not allowed to sit where they want. The term denier was the psychology part of the trick, since many people, like in the emperor's new clothes, will not wish to be out of style but will want to see.


You keep repeating your errors. It is well known what is meant when we say record temperatures. There is no "magic trick" that is only a claim that tells us of your own ignorance. Nor is there any fear mongering.

You should be asking questions instead of arguing against what you have no understanding of at all.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
The question I have has there been any time before 1880 when the earth was warmer? Weren't the glaciers already melting centuries before 1880? Didn't science predict a cool down, from their data, a few decades ago? What happened to that? Why did the powers to be rebrand "man made global warming", about a decade ago and start the new sales pitch, "climate change"? Were there not enough people saluting?

Is anyone aware that the earth's water is what what allows the earth to become and remain warm enough to sustain life? If we took away all the water the CO2 would freeze. Isn't water most important to climate change since the phase change of water between gas and liquid drives weather?

Do cities get hotter than forested land, due to asphalt roofs, roads and other manmade surfaces? Did human deforestation of the earth cause CO2 to rise due to lost of the natural plant life balance, that had absorbed CO2? Do forest fires contribute double to the CO2 output, by losing plants and burning wood? Did the same political party who pushed climate also push the Russian Collusion hoax, which was quite effective in terms of brain washing? Did the left boycott any scientist who was not with the program to force a consensus of fear and greed? Does science routinely boycott alternate theory or was this sort of an exception? Why the exception to the more open approach that used to use?

Didn't science discover an ocean of water under the earth's mantle below SE Asia? Didn't a second team discover a large scare on the Atlantic Ocean floor where the mantle was exposed? Wasn't it also discovered that the earth core rotates faster than the surface? How are these new discoveries integrated into climate change models? Could deep ocean mantle water seep into the oceans to make them warmer so they expel CO2? Is the El Nina connected to this?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The question I have has there been any time before 1880 when the earth was warmer? Weren't the glaciers already melting centuries before 1880? Didn't science predict a cool down, from their data, a few decades ago? What happened to that? Why did the powers to be rebrand "man made global warming", about a decade ago and start the new sales pitch, "climate change"? Were there not enough people saluting?

Yes,the glaciers melted. But it was cooler back then than it is now. And no, a handful of scientists predicted cooling. But the press likes exciting stories so they latched onto that. Even then the consensus was of warming. And climate change was adopted because it is more accurate. The average will get warmer but some areas could actually get cooler. For example there are worries that the Gulf Stream will shut down. That would cool much of Europe.

Is anyone aware that the earth's water is what what allows the earth to become and remain warm enough to sustain life? If we took away all the water the CO2 would freeze. Isn't water most important to climate change since the phase change of water between gas and liquid drives weather?

No. This is very false. The math behind this is not that difficult. Would you care to learn about the Stefan Boltzmann law?

Do cities get hotter than forested land, due to asphalt roofs, roads and other manmade surfaces? Did human deforestation of the earth cause CO2 to rise due to lost of the natural plant life balance, that had absorbed CO2? Do forest fires contribute double to the CO2 output, by losing plants and burning wood? Did the same political party who pushed climate also push the Russian Collusion hoax, which was quite effective in terms of brain washing? Did the left boycott any scientist who was not with the program to force a consensus of fear and greed? Does science routinely boycott alternate theory or was this sort of an exception? Why the exception to the more open approach that used to use?

Yes. The heat island effect is well understood. And science has not banned any theories.

Didn't science discover an ocean of water under the earth's mantle below SE Asia? Didn't a second team discover a large scare on the Atlantic Ocean floor where the mantle was exposed? Wasn't it also discovered that the earth core rotates faster than the surface? How are these new discoveries integrated into climate change models? Could deep ocean mantle water seep into the oceans to make them warmer so they expel CO2? Is the El Nina connected to this?

No. The water is distributed within the mantle. There are spots with more, but even the "wettest" would have only a fraction of a percent of water in it. The volume of the mantle is HUGE compared to the volume of the oceans, so even a small percentage of water adds up.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Science is like a large ship that does not turn on a dime. Change is very slow to new discoveries. The problem this creates is manmade climate change is not based on the newest implied state of the art earth science discoveries, but it is a ship that has not yet made the turn.

For example a team of scientists at Lawrence Livermore Laboratory has done high pressure and temperature studies of water, to help map out the exotic phases of water at extreme conditions. One interesting phase is metallic water that occurs at extreme pressure and heat.

Metallic water had been known for some time. The team at Livermore was able to produce metallic water at much lower conditions than was previous thought possible. In fact, they did it close to the temperature and pressure assumed for the earth's core. It very possible that metallic water is a part of the earth's core along with iron and nickel.

What also was interesting is the temperature and pressure of the various earth's layers; crust, inner and outer mantle, outer and inner core, correspond the conditions needed to make these extreme phases of water. It is very likely the inner earth is based on phases of water and soluble minerals. This seems to imply that water in some form; exotic phases, is partially defining the known layers of the earth, from atmosphere to the core. If true, what happens on the surface can impact all the way to the core and vice versa, via the continuity of water.

One may ask how did the water get there and stay there, when water is light and should have floated upward to the oceans? As temperature and pressure increases, water become an increasing aggressive solvent, that can increase the dissolve minerals. Water will move inward to the core, driven by the 2nd law. This technique is used to grow gem quality crystals; thermal gradient were down is hotter. Water will eat downward toward the heat driven by the higher solubility and the entropy increase of dissolving minerals. It is possible the water of Mars has been commandeered by the 2nd law to work its way inward and out of sight.

Another consideration for this water model is that our oxygen atmosphere, is created by plants which are mostly water. The atmospheric oxygen sets an oxidation chemical potential. Theoretically, that also sets a potential with iron core, which is electron rich. This can be transmitted but a continuity of water.

The continuity of water to the metallic core is really a continuity of oxygen and hydrogen atoms in exotic configurations that are not as simple as H2O. This looser state of oxygen allows for an oxygen continuity between the O2 rich atmosphere and iron oxide outer core; given off electrons. This is a huger source of free energy.

The sun evaporates water and as water enters the atmosphere, the positive charge of the atmosphere increases. Separated water molecules have hydrogen bonding potential. This can cause lightning. There is a solar energy potential, via the surface water, for electron flow into the atmosphere, induced by the positive charge of solar evaporated water vapor. The oceans are slightly alkaline, meaning they have a slight negative charge or extra electrons.

If we start at the surface, we have liquid water. As we go deeper into the crust, the pressure and temperature increase will induce a super critical or hydrothermal water phase. This phases is a strong solvent for rocks and minerals. Quartz will dissolve in this water phase like surface water dissolve sugar.

As we reach the mantle, the hydrothermal phase of water changes, into what is called supersonic water. This water phases is nasty stuff. Any suddens drop in pressure/temperature and it will explode like TNT; rapid phases change back to hydrothermal. When the crust and mantle interact, such as a plate boundaries, hydrothermal water mixes with super ionic water to get exploding grease.

This phase boundary of water; hydrothermal and supersonic is important to the solid/ fluid transitions at the mantle/ crustal boundary, that is essential for crustal plate movement. The sun plays a role in the movement of the crust, via evaporation and its water connection to this exotic phase boundary.
 
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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Let me continue the overview of the earth water model. Scientists and explorers have known for some time that the earth is wider or bulges at the equator. This has been attributed to centrifugal force as the earth rotates. However, a team of scientists, using seismic techniques, discovered that the earth was denser north to south; pole to pole, compared to a diagonal through the equator. Seismic waves were found to go faster pole to pole even if you normalize for the distance. The easiest conclusion to reach is the earth materials; phases, to the equator are in state that is fluffier, all the way to the core. This fluffier state could account for part of the equator being larger; beyond just centrifugal force.

This can be explained by the water model and was anticipated by it. The solar energy reaching the earth is maximized at the equator. The equator is where there most positive charge is pushed into the atmosphere due to the evaporation of surface water. This zone of the earth; equator, should be where the core rusts the faster and where the earth has its dominate flow of electrons to the surface. Balance will require the replacement of water via a migration of water from the surface to the core. The result should be slightly more hydrated states of materials that are fluffier, at the solar maximum. Metallic water may also replace some of the solid iron as the iron become an exotic version of iron oxide; fancy lodestone, and gives off electrons.

This electron flow model, attached to the water model, adds a constant reduction potential to the surface. This could explain some aspects of what we call fossil fuel, such as natural gas deposits. It is more than likely that much of the fossil fuel come direct from the earth. Fossil fuel is more of an artifact of life infiltrating this potential food supply, and getting caught up in the natural fuel making processes.

Plant life also uses solar energy to create electron flow from water, to create a reduction potential to make carbon fuel; glucose. This parallel to the earth model may not be a coincidence. What is also interesting is hemoglobin used for O2 and CO2 exchange in our blood, suggest iron ions near the core have a balancing affect on the O2 and CO2 ratio in the atmosphere.

One of the most amazing discoveries was the core of the earth rotates faster than the surface. It laps the surface about once every 500 years. This is slow but still faster than plate tectonics. It creates a model where the core is dragging the outer core and lower mantle through viscoelastic friction. This will make heat the mantle and can help drive plate movement further toward the surface. Science explains the rotating core as due to cooling and solidification of molten core, into solid iron. Like a skater pulling in their arms, the core spins faster as it gets denser. However, this does not explain how the decrease is volume inside the earth is not making the crust tighter to fill in the gap via gravity.

The water model, would explain this interesting core anomaly with the 2nd law; entropy. The core of the earth is mostly solid iron, due to the phase characteristics of iron at the extreme pressures and temperatures of the core. For water to maximize entropy, via the solid iron core, driven by the sun, the solar affect somehow needs to be distributed over more of the surface of the core. We cannot move the sun, so rotation will do this; rotation would define more surface for the 2nd law.

The result is the solid iron changes phase, over more area, for higher entropy, while the oxidation of the iron lowering enthalpy; release electrons. Combined these two affect creates the fastest change in core free energy. This will also alter the phase characteristics of iron; fluffier equator material, without adding gaps. The surface can then stay more seismically active with new crust forming with the help of the electron flow.

Another interesting observation was that the earth magnetic field periodically reverses. It does not just flip but the poles will wander the earth, until they eventually reverse. The water model maximizes the entropic impact of solar energy on the iron core via rotation. The direction of rotation does not change even when the magnetic field wanders and reverses. This phenomena appears to be more connected to the outer core where materials are more fluid and the 2nd law can be maximized further by mobility in the magnetic flux. The way to look at this is the earth targets part of its inner self, until there is diminishing returns. Then to maximize the 2nd law, it wanders to greener pastures. The seasonal tilting of the earth, which changes the surface placement of the solar maximum, may be related.

If we look at surface weather patterns, the rotation of the earth and the thermal gradient between the poles and the equator help to distribute the solar energy by moving the positive charge in the solar induced water vapor around the surface. Evaporated water adds partial pressure to the atmosphere, while the condensation of this water vapor into clouds and rain, pulls a vacuum; High and low pressure systems. The condensation into liquid water also lowers the positive charge of the water in the atmosphere. With the earth integrated from atmosphere to the core via the sun, water and oxygen, inner earth storms can impact the surface.

The chaotic world of dire consequences is due to the existing earth models from the last century. This is supplemented with casino math since we have a black box the size of the earth. All that needs to happen is an update in earth science and then this is more predictable. Change is here but for the better. But the science bureaucracy, which includes those who fund science, do not like change since it places science ahead of politics, bureaucracy and money.
 
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