Picture of Mars vs. the earth. So how did Moses know?

[TagliatelliMonster]

I fhought someone might ask something like that. Void empty - desolate, etd. A wasteland is a word used to describe something not particularly useable. Desolate -- even void -- empty -- such as the house was empty, desolate - wasted. Meantime the photo of Mars did not look appetizing, maybe to rock climbers or explorers -- no potable water, no vegetation. Just --- nothing - to use an expression. I'm really not here to argue it, but I thought someone (like you) would say, "Oh well, it doesn't really mean that..."

The fact that one can very reasonably raise that objection, is a demonstration of how it isn't a detailed description at all, instead it's extremely vague, and could be applied and interpreted in all kinds of ways.

The way you choose to interpret it, just shows your confirmation bias.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

ok, Native. When Moses wrote what he did about the earth (this planet - ) "starting out" (my expression, obviously words cannot describe well) BEFORE vegetation -- oceans -- animals -- since he ouldn't see certainly the surface of Mars, how dio you think he knew that the earth started out without -- vegetation, animals, fishes?

The alternative would be that life on the planet existed before the planet.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out what came first. Not even for scientifically ignorant folks of old.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So? How did Moses know that the earth was uninhabited by -- HUMANS AND animals AND fish "early on"?

Again..........

The alternative would be that fish existed before oceans / water.
That life on the planet existed before the planet.

Again..............

It's not exactly rocket science.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So you think that whoever wrote Genesis intuitively figured out that the earth was initially devoid of life in the form of vegetation and animals, is that how you see it?

Just like anybody else would who thinks about it for longer then 1 second.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You think they figured that out? Ok...

Just how stupid do you think people were 3000 years ago?

They were smart enough to figure out the wheel, agriculture, construction, etc...

Yes, they were certainly capable of figuring out that herbivores couldn't have existed before their food source, while their food source could have existed before them.

 

[exchemist]

Got any idea of what the earth looked like before it sprouted life? The surface of the moon and Mars look eerily somewhat alike. Zilch. Rocks. Barren.

The surface of the moon looks nothing at all like Mars.

Mars has an atmosphere and its surface resembles a terrestrial stony desert, with surface features showing considerable effects of atmospheric erosion (wind and apparently water). The airless moon is pockmarked with craters and has no such erosion features. About the only things they share are that they are solid and have no visible lifeforms.

So all you seem to be saying here is that neither has any life. I don't see where that observation gets us.

 

[Brian2]

As I have explained in the past threads, Jericho wasn't abandon in the 15th century.

If Solomon did exist (which he doesn't exist, historically), and if he did start construction of the 4th year of his reign (1 Kings 6:1), then this year would have been in 967 BCE, which would have mean that Moses didn't lead his people out of Egypt until 480 years earlier, like 1447 BCE.



This would have meant Jericho would not have been abandoned until 1407 BCE, Joshua succeeding Moses as leader, or in 1406 BCE.

But according to archaeological evidence, Jericho was deserted by, around 1570 BCE.

There is archaeological evidence that Jericho was not deserted when you suggest.
Biblical Sites: Three Ways to Date the Destruction at Jericho
And there is evidence these days for the existence of Solomon and David and their Kingdom.

 

[Brian2]

Excuse me, I can't read the article.

Second. I don't give a damn what "Believers" (article headline) believe in.

Third, archaeological evidence required "verification", not news article from the New York Times.

In 1957, Kenyon dated the layer of its destruction to about 1550, where she had excavated part of wall and a tower.

In 1995, Hendrik Bruins and Johannes van der Plicht, did another testing that put this layer's destruction to about 1573 BCE, which verified more closely to Kenyon's date than John Garstang's 1400 BCE.

Source:

Bruins & Plicht, Tell Es-Sultan (Jericho): Radiocarbon Results Of Short-Lived Cereal And Multiyear Charcoal Samples From The End Of The Middle Bronze Age, 1995​

But regardless if we rely on Kenyon's date or Garstang's date, since Pi-Ramesses or the biblical Rameses (Exodus 1:11 & 12:37), didn't exist until the city was completed around 1250 BCE.

As I said in my previous post, Pi-Ramesses was named after Ramesses I, Seti's father and Ramesses II's grandfather. There was no Ramesses in the 15th or 17 dynasties (16th century BCE) or in the 18th dynasty (15th century BCE).

So, not only the real Jericho is at odd with the Joshua 6, the existence of Pi-Ramesses also post-dated Jericho's destruction, by hundreds of years, which make the Exodus-Joshua timeline to be wrong.

The real Jericho is not at odds with Joshua and the rest of the conquest story can be seen in the archaeology of Canaan in the time period the Bible suggests.
The word "Rameses" at Exodus 1:11 is an anachronism because Pi-Rameses was not known as "Rameses" until hundreds of years after it was built. This would have been when the compilers and redactors of the Bible changed the name of the town the Israelites built to no doubt show where it was situated.
We have a choice, to see "Rameses" as an anachronism because of redaction or to see 1 Kings 6:1, Judges 11:26-27, Acts 13:19-20 and the number of generations listed 1 Chron. 6:33-38 etc as wrong.
Either way there is a problem and I go with the way that shows the Bible to be true.

 

[exchemist]

There is archaeological evidence that Jericho was not deserted when you suggest.
Biblical Sites: Three Ways to Date the Destruction at Jericho
And there is evidence these days for the existence of Solomon and David and their Kingdom.

I quote the Wiki article:
Bronze Age Jericho fell in the 16th century at the end of the Middle Bronze Age, the calibrated carbon remains from its City-IV destruction layer dating to 1617–1530 BCE. Notably this carbon dating c. 1573 BCE confirmed the accuracy of the stratigraphical dating c. 1550 by Kenyon.

From: Jericho - Wikipedia

There seems to be little doubt about this.

 

[YoursTrue]

You mean how did every creation myth in every civilization and tribal culture know this? (As it is there in every myth).
Simple...rational inference based on dependence relationship.
Earth, land, water, air etc. are NEEDED for life to exist. So any creation story written assumes these things were created before life.

Really? Earth, land, etc are necessary for life to exist? Rrally??

 

[YoursTrue]

You mean how did every creation myth in every civilization and tribal culture know this? (As it is there in every myth).
Simple...rational inference based on dependence relationship.
Earth, land, water, air etc. are NEEDED for life to exist. So any creation story written assumes these things were created before life.

I mean that Mars looks barren, devoid, empty, lifeless.

 

[YoursTrue]

Are you aware that Mars likely is not in a pre-vegetative state, but in a post-vegetative state?

Your reference to Mars really has nothing to do with the discussion.

I love that you figure mars is in a post vegetative state. How about Saturn, Venus, the moon? Got any facts, guesses, scientific evidence about them or Mars? Give it out, bro.

 

[YoursTrue]

The surface of the moon looks nothing at all like Mars.

Mars has an atmosphere and its surface resembles a terrestrial stony desert, with surface features showing considerable effects of atmospheric erosion (wind and apparently water). The airless moon is pockmarked with craters and has no such erosion features. About the only things they share are that they are solid and have no visible lifeforms.

So all you seem to be saying here is that neither has any life. I don't see where that observation gets us.

Moses didn't see the surface of the moon or Mars.

 

[Watchmen]

I love that you figure mars is in a post vegetative state. How about Saturn, Venus, the moon? Got any facts, guesses, scientific evidence about them or Mars? Give it out, bro.

Again, your reference to Mars or any other planet is irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[sayak83]

Really? Earth, land, etc are necessary for life to exist? Rrally??

Umm...yes. Obviously.

 

[exchemist]

Moses didn't see the surface of the moon or Mars.

I was responding to your statement in post 23, where you said :
"Got any idea of what the earth looked like before it sprouted life? The surface of the moon and Mars look eerily somewhat alike. Zilch. Rocks. Barren."

It is you that seems to think the appearance of Mars is in some way significant, not me. I did not start that this thread.

 

[exchemist]

I love that you figure mars is in a post vegetative state. How about Saturn, Venus, the moon? Got any facts, guesses, scientific evidence about them or Mars? Give it out, bro.

Oh dear. This question shows you don't understand much at all about what we know of the planets. Saturn is a gas giant. The prospect for life of any kind developing in a high pressure cold gas do not seem to be inherently bright. Venus has a surface temperature hot enough to melt lead. Enough said. Mars, however is a rocky planet with a thin atmosphere, moderate surface temperatures (by the standards of space) and........... evidence of past erosion by water.

I'll leave you to try to think about that for a bit, and also to think about why NASA spends so much time looking for traces of life on Mars.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Perhaps later we can discuss that. But the main point here is how do you think Moses knew (or figured) that before vegetation and animal life the earth was, shall we say, uninhabited? Did someone tell him? Did he figure it out by himself? Just that one point...again, if you look at photos of Mars there is nothing apparent except lots and lots of rocky surface. Period. Nothing else. No rovers during Moses' time, no photographs of the surface of Mars or the moon, no telescopes. So how do you think Moses knew that the earth was barren and void, kind of looking like the surface of Mars or the moon?

It kinda creates a problem for your argument though, so how about discussing it now? You claim Moses was right about things, but then ignore something he was wrong about here? (And that's assuming Moses even existed at all).

I have no idea what Mars has to do with any of this.

 

[exchemist]

It kinda creates a problem for your argument though, so how about discussing it now? You claim Moses was right about things, but then ignore something he was wrong about here? (And that's assuming Moses even existed at all).

I have no idea what Mars has to do with any of this.

You and me both!

 

[exchemist]

Perhaps later we can discuss that. But the main point here is how do you think Moses knew (or figured) that before vegetation and animal life the earth was, shall we say, uninhabited? Did someone tell him? Did he figure it out by himself? Just that one point...again, if you look at photos of Mars there is nothing apparent except lots and lots of rocky surface. Period. Nothing else. No rovers during Moses' time, no photographs of the surface of Mars or the moon, no telescopes. So how do you think Moses knew that the earth was barren and void, kind of looking like the surface of Mars or the moon?

Let's take it very, very slowly, OK?

How do we think the Genesis writer knew that before vegetation and animal life the Earth was "uninhabited"?

Just think about what you are asking.

What do you think "uninhabited" means?