• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Pink flamingos prove Creationism.

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
The probabilities are calculated and accounted for.
1. You have to take into account how much time we are talking about. 13.8 Billion years.
2. Particles/atoms can only organize themselves in certain ways due to the fundamental laws of nature.
So, it is almost impossible for our limited minds to comprehend this amount of time. But, mathematically, it is not far fetched at all.

Well that is complete fantasy, no such mathematical substantiation of evolution theory exists.

Why don't you simply support intelligent design theory? What is your personal problem that you refuse to even consider that freedom is relevant in nature, that there are ways of choosing occurring in it?

The DNA is like a harddisk, the RNA is like RAM. The "biological system" can just read from and write to DNA. The mathematical ordering of the DNA system is the same as that of the physical universe, so that there is a DNA world same as like a 3D computersimulation, which is the center for development of the organism to adulthood, as well as choosing the design. This theory fits with the evidence, and got a lot more going for it than evolution theory. It is never going to be possible to get to a 3D organism from the DNA, without a 3D DNA world. The information in the DNA must be represented in a coherent way for it to be useful for developing an organism, which coherent way can only be the 3D DNA world.

Even Dawkins says that the DNA is exactly like a computerprogram. A computer without a write function??? Where the writing of new information is done only by "error" ? Hah!
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
It isn't about the number of times an explanation is given.
It's about the explanation's cogency that is persuasive.
The latter one is lacking.

The way subjectivity functions is by choosing about what it is that chooses. Saying "the painting is beautiful", is choosing the word "beautiful" from other options such as "ugly", by a way of expression of emotion with free will. The word "beautiful" refers to love as the agency of the decision, which love chooses the word beautiful. The word "beautiful" is an expression of love, love is the agency of a decision. That means the existence of the love for the way the painting looks is just as well a matter of opinion, as that the painting is beautiful is an opinion. That's how subjectivity works, it is an inherently creationist concept.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Well that is complete fantasy, no such mathematical substantiation of evolution theory exists.

Why don't you simply support intelligent design theory? What is your personal problem that you refuse to even consider that freedom is relevant in nature, that there are ways of choosing occurring in it?

The DNA is like a harddisk, the RNA is like RAM. The "biological system" can just read from and write to DNA. The mathematical ordering of the DNA system is the same as that of the physical universe, so that there is a DNA world same as like a 3D computersimulation, which is the center for development of the organism to adulthood, as well as choosing the design. This theory fits with the evidence, and got a lot more going for it than evolution theory. It is never going to be possible to get to a 3D organism from the DNA, without a 3D DNA world. The information in the DNA must be represented in a coherent way for it to be useful for developing an organism, which coherent way can only be the 3D DNA world.

Even Dawkins says that the DNA is exactly like a computerprogram. A computer without a write function??? Where the writing of new information is done only by "error" ? Hah!
I have never claimed that Intelligent Design theory is false. That IS actually what I believe. But, evolution, I believe, was the design. It is a natural process, just as these so called "evolutionists" claim. I just think God initiated the process, well before the ToE came into play though. But, my belief in ID is based completely on faith. I can't say for sure.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
I have never claimed that Intelligent Design theory is false. That IS actually what I believe. But, evolution, I believe, was the design. It is a natural process, just as these so called "evolutionists" claim. I just think God initiated the process, well before the ToE came into play though. But, my belief in ID is based completely on faith. I can't say for sure.

Obviously it would be a factual issue, whether and how organisms are chosen to be the way they are. It is not an issue of faith. As in a court of law, what and how it is chosen is regarded as fact, but what the emotions are is regarded as a matter of opinion. Faiths is only relevant to the agency of the decisions, and that the designer would be the devil would be equally logically valid as saying God designed it, just as well it is equally logically valid to say the painting is ugly as it is to say the painting is beautiful.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Obviously it would be a factual issue, whether and how organisms are chosen to be the way they are. It is not an issue of faith. As in a court of law, what and how it is chosen is regarded as fact, but what the emotions are is regarded as a matter of opinion. Faiths is only relevant to the agency of the decisions, and that the designer would be the devil would be equally logically valid as saying God designed it, just as well it is equally logically valid to say the painting is ugly as it is to say the painting is beautiful.
In a court of law, emotions are considered as factual evidence verified by the testimony of various witnesses. It is still quantified and verified.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Obviously it would be a factual issue, whether and how organisms are chosen to be the way they are. It is not an issue of faith. As in a court of law, what and how it is chosen is regarded as fact, but what the emotions are is regarded as a matter of opinion. Faiths is only relevant to the agency of the decisions, and that the designer would be the devil would be equally logically valid as saying God designed it, just as well it is equally logically valid to say the painting is ugly as it is to say the painting is beautiful.
Again, you misunderstood me. I never claimed that the "choosing" of evolution as a method wouldn't be "factual". There is merely a lack of verifiable evidence to support the claim. This, I am left with faith.
 

groves200

Member
Obviously pink flamingos prove creationism. The odds of something like that in a materialist zeitgeist are laughably small. Actually, the ''odds'' of plain materialism are laughably small in general. ''Oh but it could happen''. Well, purple unicorns on Mars could happen as well.

talking about laughable, imagine someone miraculously transforming jugs of water in to Wine.. ring any bells? personally that makes as much sense as purple unicorns on mars, yet millions of people believe it :D
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
In a court of law, emotions are considered as factual evidence verified by the testimony of various witnesses. It is still quantified and verified.

Why don't they use an mri scanner then to measure the emotions, in stead of the unreliable eye witness testimony? Isn't this like your idea about random selection and all else you say simply pure fantasy?

Again you reject any and all subjectivity. One who rejects love, hate as subjective terms, also rejects good and evil as subjective terms, and God and the soul as well.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
Again, you misunderstood me. I never claimed that the "choosing" of evolution as a method wouldn't be "factual". There is merely a lack of verifiable evidence to support the claim. This, I am left with faith.

As it is shown that you conflate fact and opinion elsewhere, it is simply an expression of your desire to regard good and evil as fact. It is not faith of any kind.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Don't you assume that, because the universe SEEMS too complex to be random IN YOUR OPINION, you ASSUME it must be designed? And, that is merely the logical fallacy of the God of the gaps ta boot.
You are ASSUMING randomness, ? Or no? Change your argument? I think that you are contradicting yourself, because I can't even tell what argument you are presenting.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Why don't they use an mri scanner then to measure the emotions, in stead of the unreliable eye witness testimony? Isn't this like your idea about random selection and all else you say simply pure fantasy?

Again you reject any and all subjectivity. One who rejects love, hate as subjective terms, also rejects good and evil as subjective terms, and God and the soul as well.
That is a weird question you started with. Obviously, they don't use an MRI because an MRI cannot do that.

FYI, just because science can't measure something now, doesn't mean that it won't be possible in the future.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
talking about laughable, imagine someone miraculously transforming jugs of water in to Wine.. ring any bells? personally that makes as much sense as purple unicorns on mars, yet millions of people believe it :D

I'm not representing Christians. Take that up in the Xian DIR if you want. Or create a thread about it, whatever, but it's off topic.
 
Last edited:

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Obviously pink flamingos prove creationism. The odds of something like that in a materialist zeitgeist are laughably small. Actually, the ''odds'' of plain materialism are laughably small in general. ''Oh but it could happen''. Well, purple unicorns on Mars could happen as well.
Oh, I see. It's a koan AND a haiku.

A pink flamingo.
Reflection on a mirrored lake.
Laughability.


. . . .or not.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
That is a weird question you started with. Obviously, they don't use an MRI because an MRI cannot do that.

FYI, just because science can't measure something now, doesn't mean that it won't be possible in the future.

It is more excuses. First you don´t have the mathematical substantiaton, now you assert love and hate are fact, yet you cannot measure them, maybe in the future. You got nothing.

...the way love is judged to be real is by choosing. There is no way reaching a conclusion about what is real by expression of your emotion with free will, thus choosing, is ever going to be science. Not even when we have exhaustive knowledge about everything, will love be a matter of fact.

You display more of the typical utter devotion to fact at the intellectual level, to the exclusion of any unapologetic opinion, as categorically distinct from a fact. An opinion which actually says something about reality, like that the soul is real, or God is real. Subjectivity that actually matters and which is not artsy fartsy.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Don't you assume that, because the universe SEEMS too complex to be random IN YOUR OPINION, you ASSUME it must be designed? And, that is merely the logical fallacy of the God of the gaps ta boot.
....^

I have never claimed that Intelligent Design theory is false. That IS actually what I believe. But, evolution, I believe, was the design. It is a natural process, just as these so called "evolutionists" claim. I just think God initiated the process, well before the ToE came into play though. But, my belief in ID is based completely on faith. I can't say for sure.

...^

You are ASSUMING randomness, ? Or no? Change your argument? I think that you are contradicting yourself, because I can't even tell what argument you are presenting.
Are you going to answer this?

You seem to be contradicting yourself on various levels.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
It is more excuses. First you don´t have the mathematical substantiaton, now you assert love and hate are fact, yet you cannot measure them, maybe in the future. You got nothing.

...the way love is judged to be real is by choosing. There is no way reaching a conclusion about what is real by expression of your emotion with free will, thus choosing, is ever going to be science. Not even when we have exhaustive knowledge about everything, will love be a matter of fact.

You display more of the typical utter devotion to fact at the intellectual level, to the exclusion of any unapologetic opinion, as categorically distinct from a fact. An opinion which actually says something about reality, like that the soul is real, or God is real. Subjectivity that actually matters and which is not artsy fartsy.
Love?! Lol. Where did that come from?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Just for future reference, DNA could be compared to a hard drive. That's about it. No other metaphor of computer parts would make sense.

"First of all, argument by analogy always fails. Analogies are a teaching tool. They are for describing a difficult concept to someone who has no experience with that concept. By relating that concept to something that they already understand, then they can begin to see how that concept works.

To a 5th grade student, I would make the analogy that DNA is like a blueprint. It tells the cells how to make proteins. I would never use that “DNA is like a blueprint” analogy in a discussion with anyone who had the least idea about what DNA actually is. That’s like (pun intended) going up to an automotive engineer and saying that cars are like horses and buggies, and that’s why your latest model is crap.

It’s arguable that DNA is digital information. True, DNA is made of nucleotides (which are the important bit) attached to a common sugar backbone. Those four nucleotides could be described digitally using two bits[1]. Because of binary notation (like decimal notation, except with two possible values instead of ten), two bits can represent 4 things. In this case, the four DNA nucleotides: A, T, C, and G.

So, if you see someone using this argument and describing DNA using 4 bits, then you are free to call them out on having zero knowledge of DNA or biochemistry. Here’s why.

Yes, 4 bits covers the 4 nucleotides for DNA. But you need another bit to get include RNA, which, as we all know can act as a enzyme to change DNA. So, that’s pretty important.

But DNA is a hella lot more detailed than that. We need to another bit to cover methylation. Basically, the molecule for the nucleotide gets changed and has a methyl group attached to it. That can have a variety of effects, including stopping other things from happening. So we have to consider that. In fact, there are over 100 known chemical changes that can occur to various nucleotides. Each one being either present or not, so we need 100 bits (minimum) to deal with those.

The real trick in dealing with DNA as digital information is that DNA pieces aren’t taken in isolation. The entire gargantuan molecule that is a DNA chromatid interacts with itself and with other DNA strands. It folds around a histone molecule (most of the time) and certain portions of DNA are more likely to be in certain locations on those histone molecules. That can have an effect on how the DNA is copied, translated, and mutated. So, our digital model has to account for that. Oh, and there are multiple types of histone too.

Then even the histones can have molecular attachments (at least ten or so) and that has an effect on the DNA as well. For example, acetylation (which is like methylation, but with an acetyl group) of certain histones can change the transcriptional competence. So, we have to consider that.

Then there’s all kinds of other effects that can’t be taken in isolation. There are alleles that cause mutation in other alleles (and I just learned that today, how freaking awesome!). So, taken by itself, the nucleotides of an allele may be relatively simple to model digitally, but when combined, two stretches of DNA can have marked effects on each other.

Then of course, we need to talk about the relative effects of various mutational effects on pieces of DNA. Some areas of DNA are much more prone to mutation than others. This is affected by everything I’ve mentioned about and much, much more.

Any model of DNA that attempts to talk about the whole of DNA, but doesn’t include even a couple of these affects is just not going to work. Honestly, I wish that ID proponents would step up. Information technology is a growing field in biochemistry. It’s being used by several scientists to explore DNA. Not by ID proponents, which is odd, but other scientists.

At this point, we’re into hundreds of bits just to describe a single nucleotide and possibly trillions or way more to describe their interactions. Honestly, I’m not even sure how to approach it. I’m not a programmer. I don’t even know if it could be hard coded like that. So much of the interaction depends on so many other things. A cell is not an isolated thing, even a single-celled organism has inputs and outputs into the environment.

As far as I know. We can’t even model protein folding very well and DNA is orders of magnitude more complex.

But the reason that I said DNA is arguably digital is that it responds to analog inputs. The amount of a hormone in the blood stream determines the DNA response. This is what causes everything from limbs to mouths to form. We have a head end and a butt end. Not because the head end is a digital 1 and the butt end is a digital 0, but because there is a gradient of hormone levels with is higher at the head end and slowly reduces until we get to the butt end.

I’m going to borrow liberally from Doc Bill’s (most of what follows is an edited version of that) response on this subject too.

Genetic information is in no way stored, retrieved, processed or translated by the cell like a computer would treat digital information. There’s no CPU, for example. The CPU stores basic operating instructions that tells what it can do, logically speaking. Things like AND, XOR, and other logic and calculation functions are inherit in the CPU. Not so much with the cell, which must create the things that work on the things to make the things. Similarly, there is no “data” vs. “instructions” in the cell. It can all be both.

Cells and DNA don’t work in discrete steps (further removing the digital aspect). At any one time in a cell, hundreds (if not thousands) of alleles may be being read, copied, repaired, or changed. Dozens of mRNA strands are produced and being read simultaneously. Not the pseudo-simultaneous of a computer, which works so fast, we can’t perceive the steps, but actually at the same time (also so fast that we can’t perceive the steps). At two base pairs per second, it would take you 95 years to copy your DNA. Every cell in your body can do it in 8 hours.

It gets worse. Computers run off of code. If someone argues that DNA is that computer code, then they don’t understand how DNA works.

Make a change in a computer code and the whole thing likely crashes. Make a change in a DNA code and you might make it run better. The change probably won’t have any effect at all (what with non-coding regions and the resilient nature of our protein construction system). DNA can repair it’s code (sometimes). DNA can have code from completely different systems (viruses) inserted and will be perfectly fine, unless the virus kills the organism, but the DNA will work until the rest of the cell runs out of fuel.

DNA can be massively rearranged and it can have no effect on the system. Chromosomes can combine (as they did in our ancestors after the chimpanzee line split off) with no ill effects. Genes can be moved to different places on other chromosomes with no ill effects (as long as the whole thing got moved).

I’ve been trying (via several iterations) to describe what a computer that acted like a cell would be like and I just can’t. It makes no sense in computer language. This is my best attempt.

There is a hard drive. There’s no CPU. There’s no files. No images, no apps, no data, no executables. There’s just bits on the drive. Now some of those bits can cause the computer to do something. But they only react to certain inputs. If the computer gets too hot, then some bits of the drive will be read by other bits of the drive and produce bits that do other things to other bits of the drive. This isn’t random, because every bit is affected (or not) by it’s position on the drive, what other bits are around it and how the drive is built (occasionally it changes shape). Sometimes, entire chunks of bits are moved around for no apparent reason. Sometimes, the drive copies itself into another drive (which it makes the new drive itself)."

http://www.skepticink.com/smilodonsretreat/2014/09/10/dna-is-not-like-a-computer/

personal-computer-internal-mainboard-system-schematic-diagram.jpg


cellmodules.jpg


That being the most simple cell, and only one to be able to be diagrammed on a computer simulation in its entirety.
 
Top