Plain Agnostics - Do you believe in God or not?

[laffy_taffy]

Why is it people are focusing on the "doesn't exist" part when I clearly that is only half of my answer?

ok, so you still haven't answered the question:

If you are not an atheist, then which god do you believe in?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

ok, so you still haven't answered the question:

If you are not an atheist, then which god do you believe in?

Here is the answer that I have posted, if you miss it this time it is your own fault for not being able to see things from a non-black and white perspective:

Why is it people are focusing on the "doesn't exist" part when I clearly [stated] that is only half of my answer?

I don't think I can make it any more clear that I did answer the question, and my believes are neutral. My believes are neutral because I don't know.

I am a centrist in my approach to agnosticism. This does not make me an atheist or theist. It simply means my position is not congruent with either approach.

But I answered that I do not believe or disbelieve. I have a very neutral position when it comes to god, one that is in the very center between atheism and theism.

How is it not answering the question? You ask, do I believe in god, and my response is based on what I know, I don't know if god exist or not. If I were to say Yes I believe god exist or say No I don't believe god exist I would by lying because I do not have sufficient information to make an informed decision on the question.

But I don't believe or disbelieve. The issue is one that I have no real knowledge on, no reason to sway to one side or the other, and an issue that takes a very low priority in my life because I have enough to keep me occupied with the here and now, rather than worry about something that I'll only every actually know the answer to after I die (or not know, based on the perception).

I see God and aliens on the same term. Some people believe they exist, some believe they don't, and some admit they don't really know. It's not that they believe they don't exist, it's that they don't have any grounds or evidence to say with honesty if they exist or not. It's the same for god. I don't know if god exist, I don't know if god doesn't exist. So to claim a position of theism and claim that god does exist, or a position of atheist and claim that god does not exist would only make me a liar.

Saying "I don't know" is a statement of honesty, strong character, and is far more of an acceptable answer than trying to figure it out when you don't have enough information. Even a doctor's oath demands they admit they don't know when they don't know.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

From dealing with so many Atheists on the RF. There are quite a few atheist that would rather die than admit knowledge is based on belief.

It reminds me of a quote, I use to think was Neitzsche and then I found it wasn't him, but I forget who actually said it, but it states there are no facts, only interpretations. And of course even taking a perspective from a scientific point of view is still ultimately just one of a myriad of perspectives and was never intended to be the final say-so. And outside of mathematical facts, just about everything that is knowledge does take a degree of believe to assume your knowledge is true.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Why is it people are focusing on the "doesn't exist" part when I clearly that is only half of my answer?

How can you believe in something and at the same time don't believe in it? You don't believe in it, but you don't disbelieve in it either, and that's a double negative.

What are you defining as "disbelieve" in the case? If you mean "do not claim God doesn't exist" that doesn't mean you "don't disbelieve" or believe in it.

 

[9Westy9]

Belief doesn't require "fact" or "knowing". This question doesn't ask if you know God exists or not, just if you believe he does or not.

This is why I don't understand Agnosticism too well. "I don't know" works if someone asks "Does God exist" to you, but "Do you believe God exists" is a whole different question, they're not asking if you know he does or not.

no, and it annoys me when an atheist calls me 'weak' for being an agnostic. (I know not all atheists are like this though)

 

[The Sum of Awe]

no, and it annoys me when an atheist calls me 'weak' for being an agnostic. (I know not all atheists are like this though)

No what?

I wasn't calling you weak BTW, just questioning why agnostics answer "i don't know" to a "do you believe" question

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How can you believe in something and at the same time don't believe in it? You don't believe in it, but you don't disbelieve in it either, and that's a double negative.

What are you defining as "disbelieve" in the case? If you mean "do not claim God doesn't exist" that doesn't mean you "don't disbelieve" or believe in it.

My beliefs are based on my knowledge. I do not have any knowledge as to whether or not god exist. Thus I don't necessarily believe that god exist, after all it is very possible this universe did originate purely of it's own. But because the purely natural origin hypothesis does revolve around some very large odds, and because no one was there to actually see what happened, maybe god does exist and created the universe. Or maybe a non-divine entity created the universe. Yes this is placing knowledge before believes, but proper believes require proper knowledge. I do not have the knowledge of god's existence or non existence, thus I believe god may exist (I don't disbelieve) or god may not exist (I don't believe). It's a believe of neutrality concerning the issue.
I attempted to use the idea of extra terrestrial life to demonstrate this. Some people say yes, some people say no, but ultimately there is no evidence other than philosophical debates to give reason to take a side. Sure it may seem that it should be possible, even probable, that aliens exist, but certainty does not mean reality, and without any real evidence there is no reason to believe they do exist or they don't exist.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Yes, I'm sure all atheists, except for the really hardcore ones, think it's possible for god to exist, but they say "probably not" just for now at least.

Some theists may even believe it's possible that god does not exist.

 

[9Westy9]

No what?

I wasn't calling you weak BTW, just questioning why agnostics answer "i don't know" to a "do you believe" question

No as in no I don't believe in god(s). And I don't know avoids conflict better than no. Hopefully at least

 

[Willamena]

If you don't believe then you lack belief, I don't understand what you mean when you say you don't disbelieve either when it's clear you said you don't believe it.

Sure you don't claim that God doesn't exist, but if you lack belief that he does, that answers the question on "do you believe god exists?"

The world isn't black and white. It's not (deep voice) "believe or disbelieve, that is the whole of the law!" Withholding belief is a real and genuine position to take on the subject of a thing's existence, where existence is contingent.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, I'm sure all atheists, except for the really hardcore ones, think it's possible for god to exist, but they say "probably not" just for now at least.

Some theists may even believe it's possible that god does not exist.

But I am in the middle between atheism and agnosticism. Atheist is a believe that there is no god, while theism is the believe there is a god. My believes rather than gravitating towards one side are in the middle. This is also because it is a very low priority thing in my life. If I cared more to think about it I might sway towards one side or the other, but I view as being so insignificant that it''s not something I really put much thought into, other than realizing I have nothing definitive to base a decision on.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

The world isn't black and white. It's not (deep voice) "believe or disbelieve, that is the whole of the law!" Withholding belief is a real and genuine position to take on the subject of a thing's existence, where existence is contingent.

I know, but belief isn't saying if you know something or not either. I believe there may be life on other planets, but I don't know that for sure.

I don't believe there is a man with a gun out my window right now, without looking, but I can't say I know there isn't.

 

[Willamena]

Why is it people are focusing on the "doesn't exist" part when I clearly that is only half of my answer?

It's special pleading.

 

[Willamena]

I know, but belief isn't saying if you know something or not either. I believe there may be life on other planets, but I don't know that for sure.

I don't believe there is a man with a gun out my window right now, without looking, but I can't say I know there isn't.

So why not say, "I don't know, but until we find out what's the point in forming a belief?"

That's not the atheist. The atheist isn't holding his "lack of belief" for the few seconds it would take him to look out the window and form an opinion.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

So why not say, "I don't know, but until we find out what's the point in forming a belief?"

That's not the atheist. The atheist isn't holding his "lack of belief" for the few seconds it would take him to look out the window and form an opinion.

Because they didn't ask if I knew, they asked if I believe in them or not.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Because they didn't ask if I knew, they asked if I believe in them or not.

But knowing and believing are not always mutually exclusive. I don't know if god exist or not, so since I do not have the knowledge to form a solid believe then why state one that is outside of the knowledge I have? It would be hypocritical of me to believe something that I know that I do not have any real knowledge of. So I remain neutral in my believes, because to have a believe without knowledge or that is backed up by knowledge is quite a precarious situation.

 

[Willamena]

Because they didn't ask if I knew, they asked if I believe in them or not.

Belief isn't not saying if you know something or not.

Belief is what you think is true.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

But knowing and believing are not always mutually exclusive. I don't know if god exist or not, so since I do not have the knowledge to form a solid believe then why state one that is outside of the knowledge I have? It would be hypocritical of me to believe something that I know that I do not have any real knowledge of. So I remain neutral in my believes, because to have a believe without knowledge or that is backed up by knowledge is quite a precarious situation.

Good point, but I think of belief or lack of thereof as forming a hypothesis before you test it. Scientists don't say "I don't know what is the cause so I have no prediction" otherwise they couldn't test anything.

A lot of atheists will say "I don't think God exists" but they wont say "I know God doesn't exist". They think that if we were to discover the answer to "Does god exist" someday, we will find no, but they don't claim to have already discovered it.

Sorry, I tried to make sense

 

[Koldo]

Theists belief is knowledge, all knowledge comes form god
Agnostics belief is the basis for knowledge, all knowledge is rooted in belief.
Atheists knowledge is pure and what is only needed.

Actually the argument going on in here is quite different.
It is plain agnostics claiming that their belief is rooted in their knowledge.

 

[laffy_taffy]

But knowing and believing are not always mutually exclusive. I don't know if god exist or not, so since I do not have the knowledge to form a solid believe then why state one that is outside of the knowledge I have? It would be hypocritical of me to believe something that I know that I do not have any real knowledge of. So I remain neutral in my believes, because to have a believe without knowledge or that is backed up by knowledge is quite a precarious situation.

Exactly! That is why I lack belief in god. I have no knowledge of god, so why would I have a belief in god? Not having a belief in god= atheism.