Please Define "Spiritual"

[PruePhillip]

The 'spirit' in this sense exists only as a concept / thing imagined in an individual brain.

And the OP asks me for my personal take, which is as above. By all means add your own.

('Carnal things' is a big tent, but it's got plenty in it that I've found to be emotionally rewarding and important. And of course, if it wasn't for carnal things none of us would be here. So, ever subject to the basic rule Do No Harm, I'm a serious fan.)

In biblical terms carnal and spiritual are in tension, and symbolized by the brothers such as Isaac and Ishmael, and Jacob and Esau, ie the worldly versus the spiritual. The Jews never understood their own bible concerning this, and its shown in their distaste for King David's attitude towards King Saul. David never sought to harm Saul, and lamented Saul's death, despite Saul seeking to kill David.

'Do no harm' is kind of vague - hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[blü 2]

In biblical terms carnal and spiritual are in tension

Yes, of course, sexuality is so fundamental to animal nature, hence human nature, that it contains elements of judging others and being judged by others, hence of stress. The question then is how to deal with the stress.

Why would a citizen of 2022 want their morals written for them by some cult living 2500 years ago? Do no harm, and treat others with decency, respect and inclusion, is my mantra.

'Do no harm' is kind of vague - hell is paved with good intentions.

I'd say the road to hell was paved with the bones of those who massacre populations who've surrendered, indulge in mass rapes, practice human sacrifice, embrace slavery and the inferior status of women, define themselves by intolerance of other religions, and do all the other things God does in the bible.

"Do no harm" proposes you do not behave like that, do not do any of those things. Don't even eat the body and drink the blood of others, even in ritual, don't even practice antisemitism, that most Christian of vices, don't even pretend the bible says things it obviously doesn't, nor pretend it doesn't say things it obviously does. As best you can, park your superstitions and your hangups and just get on with the only life you'll ever have.

So say I. But of course these things are always up to the individual.

 

[PruePhillip]

Yes, of course, sexuality is so fundamental to animal nature, hence human nature, that it contains elements of judging others and being judged by others, hence of stress. The question then is how to deal with the stress.

Why would a citizen of 2022 want their morals written for them by some cult living 2500 years ago? Do no harm, and treat others with decency, respect and inclusion, is my mantra.
I'd say the road to hell was paved with the bones of those who massacre populations who've surrendered, indulge in mass rapes, practice human sacrifice, embrace slavery and the inferior status of women, define themselves by intolerance of other religions, and do all the other things God does in the bible.

"Do no harm" proposes you do not behave like that, do not do any of those things. Don't even eat the body and drink the blood of others, even in ritual, don't even practice antisemitism, that most Christian of vices, don't even pretend the bible says things it obviously doesn't, nor pretend it doesn't say things it obviously does. As best you can, park your superstitions and your hangups and just get on with the only life you'll ever have.

So say I. But of course these things are always up to the individual.

Read Ecclesiastes and Proverbs for some balance. These books aren't about mass killings but rather, wisdom.
Same as the Epistles, nothing to do slavery (actually, one Epistle puts the slave on the same status as the missionary who penned it)

Do we ----
As Americans not get involved in 'European entanglements' even during the Battle of Britain? Where is the 'do no harm' here?
As Westerners do we drive native people off their land for conservation, and ban them from having modern tech to 'save the environment' as in the book Green Power Black Death' ???
Do we legalize marijuana because it has some 'theraputic' properties???
Do we allow for easy, no-fault divorce because it's an easy way out ???
Do we go hard on students in basic elements of education or make education light and enjoyable, dispensing with traditional assessments of achievement???
So we 'tolerate' gambling, adultery, living together, pornography, violence as entertainment, recreational drugs because these are 'no harm' ?????

 

[blü 2]

Read Ecclesiastes and Proverbs for some balance. These books aren't about mass killings but rather, wisdom.

Yes, parts of Ecclesiastes make sense.

Same as the Epistles

I've looked at them. They have nothing I want.

Do we legalize marijuana because it has some 'theraputic' properties???

Why would we not? Alcohol is legal.

Do we allow for easy, no-fault divorce because it's an easy way out ???

Of course. When a marriage is over, it's over. The important thing is property resolution. The idea that an incompatible couple can be forced to stay together is not only absurd but brainlessly punitive.

So we 'tolerate' gambling, adultery, living together, pornography, violence as entertainment, recreational drugs because these are 'no harm' ?????

Explain to me what's wrong with living together. I speak from some experience long ago, and it was both enjoyable and educational.

 

[PruePhillip]

Yes, parts of Ecclesiastes make sense.
I've looked at them. They have nothing I want.
Why would we not? Alcohol is legal.
Of course. When a marriage is over, it's over. The important thing is property resolution. The idea that an incompatible couple can be forced to stay together is not only absurd but brainlessly punitive.
Explain to me what's wrong with living together. I speak from some experience long ago, and it was both enjoyable and educational.

Our society has entered a 'what's the harm in it?' phase. Going by the 100,000 drug deaths, 140,000 shootings, nearly half the kids from broken homes, porn now a muti-billion dollar industry like gambling now is, the wholesale SEXUALIZATION of our society, the growing use of police/security/cameras and etc etc etc I suggest the 'narrow mindedness' of simpler and more traditional societies has some merit.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

'Do no harm' is kind of vague - hell is paved with good intentions.

Is it? I find that I virtually never cause harm to others or myself.

Read Ecclesiastes and Proverbs for some balance. These books aren't about mass killings but rather, wisdom.

I found little wisdom there, and got none from that source even though I read the Bible cover-to-cover three times between ages 18 and 21, but we may be using different definitions of wisdom, which for me, is knowledge that helps one find or approximate his or her best and most satisfying life.

Do we legalize marijuana because it has some 'theraputic' properties???

No, we legalize it because there is no good reason it should be illegal, and it improves many lives.

Do we allow for easy, no-fault divorce because it's an easy way out ???

No, we allow for it because it is a constructive option for many, who discover that they've made a mistake. It's like vomiting compared to the nausea preceding it. Nobody wants to vomit, but it's often the most direct path to the nausea ending, and when nauseated, the vomiting is welcome if it corrects the problem.

So we 'tolerate' gambling, adultery, living together, pornography, violence as entertainment, recreational drugs because these are 'no harm' ?????

Yes, we legalize all of that (I'm assuming that by violence as entertainment, you are talking about violent movies and videogames, not actual street violence).

I sense an attitude from you that you would like to impose your morals on others because you believe that they are from God and therefore represent an optimal moral system. Also, that you are American (as I am). Is that correct?

I'm a humanist, and don't think that at all. I don't mind if others gamble or take potentially lethal drugs as much as I mind those options being forbidden to protect the people lacking judgment and self-control, or to impose a religious moral agenda on them.

As a humanist, I believe in empowering people to find their best life through education and social and economic opportunity. Toward that end, I say give people the maximum number of options consistent with living peacefully in a tolerant society and let them pursue happiness as they understand it (this brings us back to wisdom, or how one understands happiness is found and preserved). Let them live together and have any kind of consensual adult sex and living arrangement they like. Smoke pot and take mushrooms if you like. Gamble if you like. How long ago would people have said that they should be forced to go to church as well, or remain in loveless marriages? Based on your earlier words, I assume that you disagree, but today, the church is close to forcing them to have unwanted children, and is threatening to tell them who they cannot love or what gender they must live as. That's not how I want to live, even though none of that affects me personally.

I suggest the 'narrow mindedness' of simpler and more traditional societies has some merit.

I agree, but humanists don't want to force than on people. My wife and I left the States 13 years ago for Mexico, and that is what we found here - a simpler, happier, more traditional and less dysfunctional culture. And, with retirement to a village on a lake in the mountains, we downsized and simplified our lives as well. A tank of gas lasts us over four months now, since what isn't within walking distance is only a short drive away.

 

[Heyo]

Our society has entered a 'what's the harm in it?' phase. Going by the 100,000 drug deaths, 140,000 shootings, nearly half the kids from broken homes, porn now a muti-billion dollar industry like gambling now is, the wholesale SEXUALIZATION of our society, the growing use of police/security/cameras and etc etc etc I suggest the 'narrow mindedness' of simpler and more traditional societies has some merit.

We are in a "I don't care (and call that tolerance)" phase. We left the narrow mindedness of the "simpler and more traditional" societies for good reasons. But we kind of threw out the baby with the bathwater. While people had their noses other peoples affaires where they didn't belong, we now look the other way were we should watch. It's not easy to distinguish one from the other but it is possible when going to the basics.

 

[PruePhillip]

Is it? I find that I virtually never cause harm to others or myself.

.

Here's an example of harm. You don't want children to go through rote learning at school so you broaden education to include other cultures, bus trips, more sports, simpler maths, 'whole language' reading and the like. Education becomes more fun but loses its depth. Pretty soon literacy, numeracy and logical thinking suffer - and your doctors come from India and your scientists come from China and your cars come from Japan.
What began as good intentions, where no kids fail and everyone gets a prize, now becomes an era of unemployment, flight of industry and decline of your nation.
Transfer this to attitudes towards divorce and marriage, sexualization of society and the like and two groups in particular suffer the most - women and children. In African American communities broken homes account for 75% of all the children. You see the results in employment and crime. No-one did any 'harm' directly, but that whether by good intentions or bad intentions the result was the same.

 

[blü 2]

Our society has entered a 'what's the harm in it?' phase. Going by the 100,000 drug deaths, 140,000 shootings, nearly half the kids from broken homes, porn now a muti-billion dollar industry like gambling now is, the wholesale SEXUALIZATION of our society, the growing use of police/security/cameras and etc etc etc I suggest the 'narrow mindedness' of simpler and more traditional societies has some merit.

Countries outside the USA reduce the number of shootings by having strict gun laws. The US Constitution, written a couple of centuries ago, is in that respect and a few others ─ there should be direct election of the president, a wider procedure to ensure a SCOTUS of the center of politics, a guarantee of the status of women, the right to abortion on the Roe v Wade model, and more ─ no longer fit for purpose.

I don't like gambling, so I rarely gamble. I'm not terrified of sexuality, as you seem to be. Police and security cameras have tended to improve both police and security.

My solution is simple. Do no harm, and treat others with decency, respect and inclusion. And get on with life.

 

[PruePhillip]

Countries outside the USA reduce the number of shootings by having strict gun laws. The US Constitution, written a couple of centuries ago, is in that respect and a few others ─ there should be direct election of the president, a wider procedure to ensure a SCOTUS of the center of politics, a guarantee of the status of women, the right to abortion on the Roe v Wade model, and more ─ no longer fit for purpose.

I don't like gambling, so I rarely gamble. I'm not terrified of sexuality, as you seem to be. Police and security cameras have tended to improve both police and security.

My solution is simple. Do no harm, and treat others with decency, respect and inclusion. And get on with life.

So if some activists want 'whole language' to be used to teach kids reading, as opposed to old fashioned phonics - would you agree that it's a 'no harm' thing which makes learning enjoyable? And every student should get the prize? And grades should be averaged so no-one is 'better' than anyone else? These examples, just from schools, show how hell can be paved with good intentions. Now your doctor is Indian, your scientist is Chinese, your car is Japanese and your industries are rust buckets. Nations that work harder eat your breakfast.
"Do no harm" needs clarification.

 

[rational experiences]

Spiritual.

To be natural a human and healthy origin type.

Not a mutated sick deformed or conscious suffering human.

Love says a human original type very loving.

The type of human life mind sacrificed by star who became self destructive God theist the scientist.

Whose false claim was I invented design when I loved. He invented science as a loving being mind changed. Knowing he isn't by memory that human thinking history anymore.

A consummate liar.

Spirit the eternal whom all the living was sent out from...already living by its term a spirit type. No human definition.

Body changed after it entered heavens. Now only lives then dies.

Human study where did we come from...not as a scientist or theist for machines. Spiritual term.

Eternal became tree life became animals became human. Living that dies. Only exists now as not the eternal by species procreation.

Not the eternal type that had gone to hell to become created creation.

Spiritual. As said by a human for humans.

Not a scientist who quotes for human ego. Then machines.

 

[blü 2]

"Do no harm" needs clarification.

Really?

Oh, and you never told me what was wrong with living together.

And while you're there, can you tell me why it was necessary for God to sacrifice [his] son to [him]self before [he]'d forgive sins? Why go through all that sickening rigmarole when with one snap of those omnipotent fingers ...

 

[PruePhillip]

Really?

Oh, and you never told me what was wrong with living together.

And while you're there, can you tell me why it was necessary for God to sacrifice [his] son to [him]self before [he]'d forgive sins? Why go through all that sickening rigmarole when with one snap of those omnipotent fingers ...

That saying, 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions' sums up the issue of defining what is meant by 'do no harm'
Both Democrat and Republicans don't want to do 'harm' but each side sees the other as doing precisely that.
We cling to ideals that are vague and easy to defend.

Re sacrifice - it's the symbols we respect and understand. It's symbolic language.

 

[Colt]

​

I have my own definition but I'd like to hear from y'all first.

Not really looking for a dictionary definition here. Just what it means to you personally.

Spiritual is about spiritual realities.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Spiritual is about spiritual realities.

What is a spiritual reality?

 

[blü 2]

That saying, 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions' sums up the issue of defining what is meant by 'do no harm'

Well, following the morality of the bible won't help. To put it at its kindest, it's very primitive. (And as for eating flesh and drinking blood, yuggh!)

We cling to ideals that are vague and easy to defend.

Speak for yourself, dear Prue. Too large a variety of religions are extremely poor at acting towards others with inclusion, for example, without which decency and respect are insubstantial.

Re sacrifice - it's the symbols we respect and understand. It's symbolic language.

That explains nothing. The questions are, why was it necessary at all?

And why was it conditional on believing in Jesus? ─ that exclusion point again, which reduces the notion to a sales gimmick , not the act of the loving creator of humankind.

Or as FitzGerald's Omar put it,

The Revelations of Devout and Learn’d
Who rose before us, and as Prophets burn’d,

Are all but Stories, which, awoke from Sleep​

They told their comrades, and to Sleep return’d.
​

(Oh. and I'm still curious to hear your objection to living together.)

​

 

[Colt]

What is a spiritual reality?

Spiritual reality is spiritual reality. Its God. When you experience it then you know what it is.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Spiritual reality is spiritual reality. Its God. When you experience it then you know what it is.

I doubt we have the same experience of God, so it is might a bit more complicated.

 

[PruePhillip]

Well, following the morality of the bible won't help. To put it at its kindest, it's very primitive. (And as for eating flesh and drinking blood, yuggh!)
Speak for yourself, dear Prue. Too large a variety of religions are extremely poor at acting towards others with inclusion, for example, without which decency and respect are insubstantial.
That explains nothing. The questions are, why was it necessary at all?

And why was it conditional on believing in Jesus? ─ that exclusion point again, which reduces the notion to a sales gimmick , not the act of the loving creator of humankind.

Or as FitzGerald's Omar put it,

The Revelations of Devout and Learn’d
Who rose before us, and as Prophets burn’d,

Are all but Stories, which, awoke from Sleep​

They told their comrades, and to Sleep return’d.​

(Oh. and I'm still curious to hear your objection to living together.)

​

That business of 'eating my flesh and drinking my blood' was a point Jesus made with the Jews who came to make him king.
They were deeply offended, and even some of this own disciples 'went back and walked no more with him.'
But Jesus was speaking symbolically. The offense was intentional.

People put their own sins upon others, sadly, but having your own sins placed upon the perfect, young male sheep and have it take your sins with it in sacrifice was tremendously helpful, and symbolic of a higher level symbol - that of Christ being the lamb of God.

And there's many things in the bible which offend us - indeed, they offended Jews AT THE TIME THEY WERE WRITTEN.

We all have symbols. We wear respectful clothing for a funeral, we wave or shake hands, we give titles to people, we salute the flag, we march in honor of fallen comrades etc.. Symbols are powerful language.
One I like is the commandment of the Hebrews to kill or drive out the Canaanites from Palestine. That's symoblic of the influences you must put to death in your own life (sexual, drinking, vengeance, hate etc..) As it was the Jews did not obey this admonition, and they suffered at the hands of the Canaanites, over and over again.

 

[PureX]

I think the term "spirit" refers to the metaphysical essence of something: from the spirit of joy at a wedding to the spirit of a dead loved one.