Please Explain: "Gay Christian"

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

I am gay, I am atheist, but I grew up in a "devout Christian home".

I understand that behavior is a choice; so I certainly understand that a celibate gay can be a Christian.

What I do not understand is the idea that a gay who is engaging in same sex relationships could, or would, identify themselves as Christian. It is a paradox to me.

We are well aware of the scriptures used to condemn homosexuality. The Old Testament, of course, condemned it. In the New Testament, Paul the Apostle called it "unnatural", made references towards homosexuality in the destruction of Sodom, and made it quite clear that "blah blah blah blah would not inherit the kingdom of Heaven", with homosexuality being on that list of blah blah blahs.

So: Gay Christians, specifically (it feels odd to type that; I feel like I'm typing an oxy moron), with the tenets of Christianity apparently so condemning of homosexuality, why do you find yourself drawn to it and how to you reconcile the apparent Christian doctrines that condemns us for what we are?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm a queer Christian. I did some research into the subject and came to the conclusion that those verses don't necessarily say what many people think they say and some of them have been mistranslated and removed from their cultural context. It's really not that difficult. But I can understand how it could be difficult when you've been persecuted due to it before. Queerness in Christianity has existed since the very start.

 

[Riverwolf]

The laws of the Torah are supposed to apply to Jews, and no one else.

While Paul's letters are a large reason why Christianity spread so far, not all Christians accept them as God's Word. I've talked to many Christians who don't believe that the entire Bible is literally God's dictated word, but believe in the divinity of Jesus. That's all that's needed to be Christian: worship Jesus as God/Son of God. And he didn't say anything about the matter.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The laws of the Torah are supposed to apply to Jews, and no one else.

While Paul's letters are a large reason why Christianity spread so far, not all Christians accept them as God's Word. I've talked to many Christians who don't believe that the entire Bible is literally God's dictated word, but believe in the divinity of Jesus. That's all that's needed to be Christian: worship Jesus as God/Son of God. And he didn't say anything about the matter.

Plus, it can be argued that Paul was not referring to homosexuality, or referring to homosexuality as we understand it today.

 

[Riverwolf]

Plus, it can be argued that Paul was not referring to homosexuality, or referring to homosexuality as we understand it today.

I've heard it said that, when taken into the proper context, he was primarily talking about Temple Prostitutes in general, whether heterosexual or homosexual.

Many of the Temples to the Greek Gods remain standing in varying degrees of disrepair, but for the Temple of Aphrodite in Corinth(which received two very popular letters of Paul), not a single stone remains.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

I hate the term "queer". In my generation, that was the epitome of an insult to a gay. It was synonymous with "Pervert" and "Freak". I attempt to change with the times, but that term evokes such emotion, it is extremely difficult to be rational. We are not "queer". We are not odd or strange. We are not freaks or perverts. We are as natural and normal as our heterosexual neighbors. We are just gay, homosexual or transgender. I have great difficulty adapting to that term.

With my venting done and my opinion stated, I won't speak on that further, regardless of which word you feel comfortable with.

In looking into cultural contexts, I have found this consistency, from Sicily to Iceland: Invariably, the one who preferred the "feminine" position were invariably scorned. Based on these findings, I conclude that these versus meant exactly what they meant; if not for both men, but for the man in the feminine position. Have you found evidence I have missed? If so, I would be interested in viewing it.

The Old Testament, I can easily dismiss. When it comes to the few versus in the New Testament, Paul's letters, who believes they have been "mistranslated and removed from their cultural context" and based on what evidence? Of course, I'm not hoping for an entire dissertation; but a point in the right direction?

(I find it interesting that only male homosexuality was condemned in the Bible, though).

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

One opinion I ran across suggested that Paul was speaking about forced homosexuality, as it was believed to be common for Roman soldiers to have slaves or engage in sexual practices with those who we would, today, call "minors" or "under aged". As one who finds Greco-Roman history fascinating, I have researched that culture and history. The gay debate did exist there; though it was a more "refined, intellectual" debate without the fanatacism of other cultures. Nonetheless, there is evidence in writings, poems and on pottery suggesting that there were many who believed "it is not good for a man to love a man". Other research also indicated that, yes, there was slavery among the Romans and some Greeks and Romans did court young men; but also that there existed a very different attitude of when a young man was a "man" and the practice was carried out chiefly by nobles; not common soldiers. Based on the existence of the "gay debate", lack of evidence indicating mass slave ownership by commoners and the scorning of gays in the "feminine" position, I certainly have not reached the same conclusion.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I hate the term "queer". In my generation, that was the epitome of an insult to a gay. It was synonymous with "Pervert" and "Freak". I attempt to change with the times, but that term evokes such emotion, it is extremely difficult to be rational. We are not "queer". We are not odd or strange. We are not freaks or perverts. We are as natural and normal as our heterosexual neighbors. We are just gay, homosexual or transgender. I have great difficulty adapting to that term.

Well, then don't use it for yourself. I call myself queer because my sexual orientation doesn't fit into the gay, straight or bisexual categories. It's deliberately vague and politically charged and I like that about it.

In looking into cultural contexts, I have found this consistency, from Sicily to Iceland: Invariably, the one who preferred the "feminine" position were invariably scorned. Based on these findings, I conclude that these versus meant exactly what they meant; if not for both men, but for the man in the feminine position. Have you found evidence I have missed? If so, I would be interested in viewing it.

The Old Testament, I can easily dismiss. When it comes to the few versus in the New Testament, Paul's letters, who believes they have been "mistranslated and removed from their cultural context" and based on what evidence? Of course, I'm not hoping for an entire dissertation; but a point in the right direction?

(I find it interesting that only male homosexuality was condemned in the Bible, though).

There's a number of sites that talk about it:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm
Gay Christian 101 - Affirming God's good news and Bible truth for all GLBTs.
The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality
Clobber Texts | Queering the Church
A Catholic priest and theologian's take on it: My Take: What the Bible really says about homosexuality – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

Etc., etc. There's many such resources that go over those verses.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Thank you!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You're welcome.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Old Testament, I can easily dismiss. When it comes to the few versus in the New Testament, Paul's letters, who believes they have been "mistranslated and removed from their cultural context" and based on what evidence? Of course, I'm not hoping for an entire dissertation; but a point in the right direction?

Based on what I've read on the subject, I don't think those verses have been mistranslated. However, I note that Paul's anti-homosexual passages are no more emphasized than his misogynistic and pro-slavery passages that are normally quietly ignored by most modern Christian denominations today. That might be the best you can hope for on the homosexuality issue.

(I find it interesting that only male homosexuality was condemned in the Bible, though).

That's not actually true. Romans condemns female homosexuality, too.

The Bible has less to say about female homosexuality than male homosexuality, but I think this is more of an indication of the low status of women in the societies that created the Bible than it is an endorsement of lesbians.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There's a number of sites that talk about it:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm
Gay Christian 101 - Affirming God's good news and Bible truth for all GLBTs.
The Bible Does NOT Condemn Homosexuality
Clobber Texts | Queering the Church
A Catholic priest and theologian's take on it: My Take: What the Bible really says about homosexuality – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

Etc., etc. There's many such resources that go over those verses.

I think it's worthwhile to also throw into the mix what the only (AFAIK) member with a relevant PhD had to say on the subject (along with me arguing with him - he eventually convinced me ):

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/philosophy/47922-some-notes-paul-homosexuality.html

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Based on what I've read on the subject, I don't think those verses have been mistranslated.

"Malakoi" does not necessarily pertain to homosexuality. It means "effeminate" and was a general insult in ancient Greek culture for those viewed as "unmanly" (i.e. soft or cowardly). Older translations of the Bible translate it correctly as "effeminate". But since about the '50s, they've started to translate it in all sorts of ways that usually have something to do with homosexuality. Those are shoddy translations of the term.

Malakia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE NEW TESTAMENT: CONSERVATIVE AND LIBERAL VIEWS
TEXT OF CORINTHIANS 6:9-11 FROM THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES

As for "arsenokoitai", it appears that no one knows exactly what it means: HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE NEW TESTAMENT: CONSERVATIVE AND LIBERAL VIEWS

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think it's worthwhile to also throw into the mix what the only (AFAIK) member with a relevant PhD had to say on the subject (along with me arguing with him - he eventually convinced me ):

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/philosophy/47922-some-notes-paul-homosexuality.html

And other experts disagree with him. So...

 

[Ingledsva]

"Malakoi" does not necessarily pertain to homosexuality. It means "effeminate" and was a general insult in ancient Greek culture for those viewed as "unmanly" (i.e. soft or cowardly). Older translations of the Bible translate it correctly as "effeminate". But since about the '50s, they've started to translate it in all sorts of ways that usually have something to do with homosexuality. Those are shoddy translations of the term.

Malakia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE NEW TESTAMENT: CONSERVATIVE AND LIBERAL VIEWS
TEXT OF CORINTHIANS 6:9-11 FROM THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES

As for "arsenokoitai", it appears that no one knows exactly what it means: HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE NEW TESTAMENT: CONSERVATIVE AND LIBERAL VIEWS

Yep, - "malakoi" comes across best as what we would call a Dandy. Or the old fashioned Ne'er-do-well.


Someone that overindulges in fine food, alcohol, sex, and fine clothing, etc.


Think of Jack Sparrow in Pirates of the Caribbean.


Charming - but watch the liquor cabinet, and the fine silver. LOL!



*

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yep, - "malakoi" comes across best as what we would call a Dandy. Or the old fashioned Ne'er-do-well.


Someone that overindulges in fine food, alcohol, sex, and fine clothing, etc.


Think of Jack Sparrow in Pirates of the Caribbean.


Charming - but watch the liquor cabinet, and the fine silver. LOL!



*

Lol. I love dandies. I suppose that I, along with the entire fashion world, are hellbound according to Paul.

 

[Bunyip]

What I don't understand is why those few brief and unclear references to homosexuality are taken to be significant, whilst other much more clear and emphatic prohibitions are almost universally ignored.

I think that people's interpretation of scripture simple tends to place emphasis on the bits that fit their existing biases and ignores the bits that do not.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

What I don't understand is why those few brief and unclear references to homosexuality are taken to be significant, whilst other much more clear and emphatic prohibitions are almost universally ignored.

I think that people's interpretation of scripture simple tends to place emphasis on the bits that fit their existing biases and ignores the bits that do not.

Excellent point. It's only 6 verses out of thousands so clearly God has more important things on His mind.

 

[Ingledsva]

I am gay, I am atheist, but I grew up in a "devout Christian home".

I understand that behavior is a choice; so I certainly understand that a celibate gay can be a Christian.

What I do not understand is the idea that a gay who is engaging in same sex relationships could, or would, identify themselves as Christian. It is a paradox to me.

We are well aware of the scriptures used to condemn homosexuality. The Old Testament, of course, condemned it. In the New Testament, Paul the Apostle called it "unnatural", made references towards homosexuality in the destruction of Sodom, and made it quite clear that "blah blah blah blah would not inherit the kingdom of Heaven", with homosexuality being on that list of blah blah blahs.

So: Gay Christians, specifically (it feels odd to type that; I feel like I'm typing an oxy moron), with the tenets of Christianity apparently so condemning of homosexuality, why do you find yourself drawn to it and how to you reconcile the apparent Christian doctrines that condemns us for what we are?

It is unlikely that most, if any, of the so called homosexual verses, are actually about such.


Most of them are about Sacred Sex.


For instance - Deuteronomy 23:18 There shall be no harlot among the daughters of Israel, nor shall there be a homosexual among the sons of Israel.


Actually says -


Deuteronomy 23:18 There shall be no Qadeshah among the daughters of Israel, nor shall there be a Qadesh among the sons of Israel.


A Qadeshah is a Female Sacred Temple Prostitute. Qadesh - a MALE Sacred Temple Prostitute.


I might add that Jesus said nothing about homosexuality. One would think if he was worried about it, he would have said something.


*

 

[Bunyip]

Saint Frankenstein.


A millenia ago homosexuality was pretty much a non issue in many parts of the Christian world, in fact in 1061in Rairiz de Veiga in Spain two men - Pedro Diaz and Muno Vandilaz were married in Church by a priest. So even gay marriage was permitted.