Please Help: Trying to get my Facts Right

[Cr0wley]

I've been doing some thinking about the whole Satanic thing. I've written down what I've picked up about the whole thing, but seeing my lack of resources (more of the fact that I've not known exactly known where to look) I've not been able to understand everything. What I DO understand:

Lucifer was God's most beautiful and gifted angel. He was the angel of light (and I've heard that he's credited with being the angel of music too) and God was pleased with him. But the problem is, he was too well made.

God gave him a measure of free will, not unlike our own, and this was his downfall. He wanted to free the other angels from God's "slavery", so by gaining 3/4 of the angels' support he started the ultimate rebellion. God, being almighty (well, at least they say so), eventually defeated Lucifer. He stripped him of his title (his name, which is now Satan) and banished him to earth to wait for his punishment.

So when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, Satan saw the oppertunity to break God's bondage over humans aswell, and told Eve to eat the fruit. (Notice how anything that concerns our free will is considared "Evil"?)

I see Satan is the ultimate revolutionary, gaining souls for the final match up. I also see the book Revalations as just properganda. No one knows the final result.

Another thing. When has Satan ever promised you an eternity of suffering if you don't do as he says? Makes the other team sound alittle harsh, huh?

I'm just wondering if my views are shared or if my facts are screwy. I've looked into LaVey, but honestly some of his things sound alittle gimcky.

I would love to hear your opinions.

 

[Druidus]

Sounds close to what I belive, Crowley, though I'm neither Christian nor Luciferist.

It all reminds me of Prometheus. I think Satan was adapted into Judaism and Christianity from a religion that contained a Prometheus-like character.

Prometheus secretly gave fire, the wheel, knowledge, free will, and other assorted goodies to humans, and was punished by Zeus the Almighty, for eternity (though he escaped).

Also, ditto the stuff about God sounding evil to me.

Were there a rebellion now, I would be forced to side with Satan, even knowing that God would win, as I could not honourably side with a God so sadistic that he would torture, for eternity, his creations (which he created to be inherently flawed).

Anyways, I don't have to worry about that. I'm a Druid, and believe in neither God, nor Satan.

 

[Jaymes]

Are you sure it was 3/4ths of the angels? I seem to recall 1/3rd, but I could be wrong.

 

[Druidus]

I remembered 1/3 too, Jensa.

 

[Cr0wley]

Oh. I'll have to look that one up and update it this evening. Thanks for sharing your views.

If you are saying that Satan's an adapted Prometheus, why would his character be seen as "evil"? I seem to remember that Prometheus was seen as heroic...

So confusing...

 

[Scuba Pete]

When has Satan ever promised you an eternity of suffering if you don't do as he says?

Actually, I think Satan has promised suffering if you DO as he says.

 

[Cr0wley]

No, God promises suffering if you follow anyone or anything other than him...

 

[Era]

1. Satan is not Lucifer
2. God promised the sufference , not Satan ( and I say this for you NetDoc:tsk
3. Satan is seen as the hero because he represents another kind of order , one that can bring man back to his nature .
4. The reason why Anton Szandor LaVey ( I `m giving the holl name of LaVey so other people could see that I know it!) is not compatible with many people`s ideas of satanism , is because Anton Szandor LaVey created a new system of satanism , more close to what it should be . I repeat - we have nothing to do with christianity , people please remember this !

 

[Nick Soapdish]

I've been doing some thinking about the whole Satanic thing. I've written down what I've picked up about the whole thing, but seeing my lack of resources (more of the fact that I've not known exactly known where to look) I've not been able to understand everything. What I DO understand:

Lucifer was God's most beautiful and gifted angel. He was the angel of light (and I've heard that he's credited with being the angel of music too) and God was pleased with him. But the problem is, he was too well made.

God gave him a measure of free will, not unlike our own, and this was his downfall. He wanted to free the other angels from God's "slavery", so by gaining 3/4 of the angels' support he started the ultimate rebellion. God, being almighty (well, at least they say so), eventually defeated Lucifer. He stripped him of his title (his name, which is now Satan) and banished him to earth to wait for his punishment.

So when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, Satan saw the oppertunity to break God's bondage over humans aswell, and told Eve to eat the fruit. (Notice how anything that concerns our free will is considared "Evil"?)

I see Satan is the ultimate revolutionary, gaining souls for the final match up. I also see the book Revalations as just properganda. No one knows the final result.

Another thing. When has Satan ever promised you an eternity of suffering if you don't do as he says? Makes the other team sound alittle harsh, huh?

I'm just wondering if my views are shared or if my facts are screwy. I've looked into LaVey, but honestly some of his things sound alittle gimcky.

I would love to hear your opinions.

Why would you trust a higher spirit that is centered on self-interest? What makes you believe Satan, who is reputed as the father of lies, is looking out for your interests?

Also, you seem to believe Jesus Christ was a divine being who "promised you an eternity of suffering". Can you really objectively look at His teachings and claim He is actually the bad guy?

 

[michel]

Why would you trust a higher spirit that is centered on self-interest? What makes you believe Satan, who is reputed as the father of lies, is looking out for your interests?

Also, you seem to believe Jesus Christ was a divine being who "promised you an eternity of suffering". Can you really objectively look at His teachings and claim He is actually the bad guy?

Well said and fruball-worthy!

 

[Cr0wley]

Why would you trust a higher spirit that is centered on self-interest? What makes you believe Satan, who is reputed as the father of lies, is looking out for your interests?

Satan has not ONCE masked his intentions when it comes to the bigger picture. Yes, he decieves, yet he actually acts. What do we actually KNOW about God? What's he getting out of this whole human race? No-one can give me an answer on this. And if God is so powerful, why is one such as Satan "allowed" to exist?

Also, you seem to believe Jesus Christ was a divine being who "promised you an eternity of suffering". Can you really objectively look at His teachings and claim He is actually the bad guy?

Not once have I mentioned Jesus. I don't wish to get him involved, since Satan concerns Christians, Jews and other religions too. I'm not dodging the question, it's just that I don't want to get the thread side tracked.

 

[Halcyon]

I have some questions too, sorry if this side tracks .

The name Lucifer is not mentioned in the bible, neither is the idea of Shaitan being a fallen angel. Are these ideas from the poem Paradise Lost and nothing else?

Also the Elohim have an army of Cherubim with flaming swords at their disposal, why weren't these used to keep Shaitan out of the Garden of Eden?

If, as Christians say, the elohim intended Adam and Eve to eat the fruit all along and "become as Gods", why did they expel then from the Garden?

 

[Nick Soapdish]

Satan has not ONCE masked his intentions when it comes to the bigger picture.

And what are his intentions when it comes to the bigger picture? You have stated that he wants to overthrow God because of God's slavery over angels (and people I presume too). Do you know what his vision for people would be after this overthrowing? If he is a spirit of self-interest and deceit, would he have any reason not to just abolish our existence?

Yes, he decieves, yet he actually acts.

I prefer honesty in anyone I follow.

What do we actually KNOW about God? What's he getting out of this whole human race? No-one can give me an answer on this. And if God is so powerful, why is one such as Satan "allowed" to exist?

We are in error to assume we can understand God's purpose fully, or to know why He does things. Having said that, it is my opinion that God has created the world as He did so that He can have a loving relationship with us. Such a relationship would not have meaning with out adversity.

Not once have I mentioned Jesus. I don't wish to get him involved, since Satan concerns Christians, Jews and other religions too. I'm not dodging the question, it's just that I don't want to get the thread side tracked.

Which Satan are you referring to if not the one from the New Testemant? If you are talking about "picking sides", it does not seem reasonable to leave Jesus out.

 

[Nick Soapdish]

Also the Elohim have an army of Cherubim with flaming swords at their disposal, why weren't these used to keep Shaitan out of the Garden of Eden?

If, as Christians say, the elohim intended Adam and Eve to eat the fruit all along and "become as Gods", why did they expel then from the Garden?

I suppose it depends if we believe Satan had freewill. If God interferred with everything Satan did that disagreed with Him, Satan would not have much freewill. Satan's sword would turn into rubber anytime he tried to swing it. Do we really have the insight or perspective to judge what sort of depth of trouble Satan should be allowed to cause with his rebellion?

Anyway, the missing part of the equation is that God is fixing the problem by sending Jesus.

 

[Passerbye]

Satan has not ONCE masked his intentions when it comes to the bigger picture. Yes, he decieves, yet he actually acts. What do we actually KNOW about God? What's he getting out of this whole human race? No-one can give me an answer on this. And if God is so powerful, why is one such as Satan "allowed" to exist?

Um... I think I can answer this. Loved ones for all eternity. People that will rely on him alone, and not their own strength. Someone who will never betray him. Basicly, the same thing that should be looked for when you pick a wife.
Why is Satan alowed to exist? Think of it this way. How else are you supose to make someone rely on you, besides giving them the chance to go out on their own and see they can't do it. How are you supose to get a trust worthy person without testing them. This world puts us threw the refining fire. What comes out of the fire of this world is stronger than what goes in. What goes in, and does not pass the test of fire, will forever remain in the fire.
Do you understand now?

 

[Passerbye]

Oh, and what do we know about God... Um let's see... he spent years trying to teach us who he is... he shows us himself in all things, not to mention what he has spoken to us himself. He tells us what he likes and doesn't like... he tells us what he has done in the past... he tells us what he can do... he even, sometimes, tells us what he will do. Is that not what you tell a girl or a guy when you date them or when you are getting to know them? And over time don't you share more with the other person, depending upon what you know they can handle? He has shown us himself. What more do you want? Would you like him to reveal himself COMPLETELY to you? Do you reveal yourself completely right when someone first meets you?

 

[Serpens]

In Christian mythology, Lucifer is not Satan. This is an error perpetuated from the flawed translation from the earlier text by King James I's scholars. Lucifer in the Bible refers to a fallen Babylonian King. A human, not an angel.

Luciferians use the Roman archetype of Lucifer as a "father figure", not the Christian anti-thesis, although it seems certain parallels can be drawn between the two mythological figures. The authors of the Bible incorporated Roman heros and inverted them. The Roman personification of Lucifer, the personification of enlightenment and the Bringer of Light, is seen as similar the the assumed form of the Serpent in the Old Testament, which is asserted to be Satan because the Serpent freed mankind from ignorance, and led him to knowledge.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Passerbye, just a heads-up, the "Discuss Individual Religions" threads are not for debate. They are okay for asking members of other religions questions, but not for sharing your own opinion of another's religion with others (unless they asked). Please PM me if you'd like me to try to explain this further.

 

[KirbyFan101]

Why would you trust a higher spirit that is centered on self-interest?

We ourselves are selfish beings. He allows passage for empathy.

What makes you believe Satan, who is reputed as the father of lies, is looking out for your interests?

He is not looking out for our interests. Satanists model him, not worship him.

Also, you seem to believe Jesus Christ was a divine being who "promised you an eternity of suffering". Can you really objectively look at His teachings and claim He is actually the bad guy?

Jesus taught that we should repress who we are for the sake of doing so. Sorry, thats idealism, not realism. I will take the achievable over hypocrisy anyday.

 

[KirbyFan101]

And what are his intentions when it comes to the bigger picture? You have stated that he wants to overthrow God because of God's slavery over angels (and people I presume too). Do you know what his vision for people would be after this overthrowing? If he is a spirit of self-interest and deceit, would he have any reason not to just abolish our existence?

You seem to be under the impression that Satan is some sort of saviour for Satanists. He represents rebellion, not evil. Might I remind you a majority of Satanists are not Diestic?

I prefer honesty in anyone I follow.

Sometimes trust is mistrust.

We are in error to assume we can understand God's purpose fully, or to know why He does things. Having said that, it is my opinion that God has created the world as He did so that He can have a loving relationship with us. Such a relationship would not have meaning with out adversity.

If God created us, he put the ability for us to disbelieve in us. It is foolish to create something with capabilities, and then to condemn it because it explores these avenues.

Which Satan are you referring to if not the one from the New Testemant? If you are talking about "picking sides", it does not seem reasonable to leave Jesus out.

Its not about picking sides, I know of few religions that worship a literal spawn of evil.