Please Help: Trying to get my Facts Right

[Malus 12:9]

Why would you trust a higher spirit that is centered on self-interest? What makes you believe Satan, who is reputed as the father of lies, is looking out for your interests?

Someone has ignored LaVeyan Satanism. Now, I don't mean to ruin your thing that MICH seemed to like, but LaVeyans do not worship Satan.

Why would you trust a higher spirit that is centered on self-interest?

LaVeyans themselves are thier "higher" spirit, dude.

Ok, I'll butt out so you can make a you beaut post for more frubaling

 

[Ðanisty]

Also, you seem to believe Jesus Christ was a divine being who "promised you an eternity of suffering". Can you really objectively look at His teachings and claim He is actually the bad guy?

I'm Luciferian and I don't believe Jesus is the bad guy. In fact, I don't believe this is a matter of comparing Lucifer and Jesus at all because they are not in opposition. Lucifer is opposed to God, not Jesus. I can, in fact, objectively look at God and claim he is the bad guy. That is actually how I arrived on my current path.

 

[Super Universe]

My opinion, made extremely concise.

The creator made the universe and set no rules but the physical laws, science to control all matter and energy. Over time beings evolved and changed form into sentient energy (angels). There are many dimensions that these angels discovered and evolved into. At some point, these beings finally evolved enough to find God.

So a system was created by the angels to help other beings make their way up the ladder but the angels follow what they believe to be God's original intent for the universe. The reason everything is so spread out is so there will not be interference. If you do not want help, you will not get help. You must want to find the Creator.

Lucifer was an angel in the system, he had not made it up high enough to meet God. He was assigned to the earth where Adam and Eve were already doing their best to help primitive humans up the ladder. Lucifer did not follow the rule of non interference and he increasingly encouraged Adam and Eve to take more drastic action but they refused. No one can force another to do anything. You always have a choice. Eve finally did choose to take a more drastic approach and she committed a grave 'original' sin. Eve became pregnant by a human.

Lucifer lost is faith. He denied the existance of God, since he never actually knew him, or he decided the path was too long and full of hard work that it was not worth the final reward of meeting God. Lucifer convinced some other angels (Satan was another) and humans. His rebellion spread within the system.

Now the higher angels immediately assembled their council and decided the rebels should be taken into custody, which happened long ago. But time is not the same for all beings. A day to them is 1,000 of my years. If found guilty of denial of deity, Lucifer will cease to exist. Judged and punished by the higher angels, the Ancients, not by God.

 

[Passerbye]

I'm Luciferian and I don't believe Jesus is the bad guy. In fact, I don't believe this is a matter of comparing Lucifer and Jesus at all because they are not in opposition. Lucifer is opposed to God, not Jesus. I can, in fact, objectively look at God and claim he is the bad guy. That is actually how I arrived on my current path.

Actualy if you look at the life of Jesus (what he said and did) you have two conclutions to choose from. Either he was a crazy, demon possesed man who thought he was God... or He was God. The Jews at that time understood that perfectly.

The message He gave and the work He did testified on his behalf that He was God, because he did only what His Father did in the past, and told the message God had been telling from the begining. That is the proof that He was God. However such proof is subject to speculation and belief, and even when you know the facts of it and know it's true Satan still tries to make you doubt it. It is true yet you must believe. What a funny system, and yet it's the most genious one yet. How else could God have given free will to believe in the truth.

As for Lucifer, if he is against God he is against Jesus for He is God, and does the will of God.

Either that or Jesus is some crazy, demon possessed guy who did what God had been doing for the previous 4000 years, did a lot of good, healed people, brought people back from the dead, rose from the dead, ect... And if all that was true (which I think it would take a lot of faith to believe that (the crazy, demon possessed part) (although since Satan wouldn't be against you it might not be too hard) then from that point of view I guess Lucifer wouldn't be against him.

 

[Fluffy]

Actualy if you look at the life of Jesus (what he said and did) you have two conclutions to choose from. Either he was a crazy, demon possesed man who thought he was God... or He was God. The Jews at that time understood that perfectly.

Plenty of more popular religions than Satanism disagree with both of those options.

 

[Passerbye]

Actualy if you look at the life of Jesus (what he said and did) you have two conclutions to choose from. Either he was a crazy, demon possesed man who thought he was God... or He was God. The Jews at that time understood that perfectly.

Plenty of more popular religions than Satanism disagree with both of those options.

That's one thing that makes them ridiculous. It doesn't matter how popular the religion is... if it's wrong, it's wrong.

That's right, I said it. I know thats not 'tolerating everyone for their beliefs', but facts are facts. If you want to interperate facts in an odd way that's up to you, most of the world seems to do that. I have done that most of my life, so I know how it is. I had the oddest ideas about all kinds of things, and they seemed to make all kinds of sense but they were all ridiculous. Many things seem to be true, but unless you know the truth then you are lost. Utterly lost... just like I was.

 

[Fluffy]

That's right, I said it. I know thats not 'tolerating everyone for their beliefs', but facts are facts. If you want to interperate facts in an odd way that's up to you, most of the world seems to do that. I have done that most of my life, so I know how it is. I had the oddest ideas about all kinds of things, and they seemed to make all kinds of sense but they were all ridiculous. Many things seem to be true, but unless you know the truth then you are lost. Utterly lost... just like I was.

Perhaps you are still lost? If many things seem to be true, the truth must be indistinguishible from all of them meaning that you cannot know that you have found it. Otherwise everyone would be of one religion, the one that contained the truth that was distinguishible from the lies.

 

[Ðanisty]

Jesus was an occultist...a magickian who did God's work. He clearly believed that what he was doing was the right thing. He did actually do a lot of great things for his fellow men. He just did them in God's name. I'm not going to condemn a man for believing differently than I do. I don't condemn his followers either. I don't even condemn you and so that you know, I would never go into your forum and claim to know what the truth is. You have your truth and I have mine. You think I am deceived and I think you are deceived, but it doesn't really matter if we respect each other. Of course I think Jesus was serving the wrong man, but he didn't harm anyone. As far as I'm concerned he was just mislead.

It's kinda funny that you felt you had to react to the fact that I don't hate Jesus.

 

[Passerbye]

Perhaps you are still lost? If many things seem to be true, the truth must be indistinguishible from all of them meaning that you cannot know that you have found it. Otherwise everyone would be of one religion, the one that contained the truth that was distinguishible from the lies.

When you were a child did you not believe the first thing someone told you, like when someone told you about Santa maybe. Or maybe, like me, you invented stories to tell others. The stories seemed very logical to you untill you grew up, or until a grown up person told you otherwise. Then after you grew up can you not look back at what you believed in to see clearly that it was all lies and stupidity. If someone else started talking about you and what you did and said when you were little and didn't know any better, would you not be embarassed. You can see, now that you are an adult, that you were just being a child. You thought you were smart, but you were not. When you can clearly see what is true you realize the lie.

 

[Passerbye]

Jesus was an occultist...a magickian who did God's work.

Oh, and who told you this? I don't remember anything such as this... probably because it doesn't exist. Even if he were, then that would mean he had a demon, because if you use spells and magic then in order for what you actually do to be formed into some magical thing something has to interpret it into an action, and in such cases that means a demon. Ask anyone who has actually been saved out of the occult.

I'm not going to condemn a man for believing differently than I do. I don't condemn his followers either. I don't even condemn you and so that you know, I would never go into your forum and claim to know what the truth is.

I'm not going to condemn them either... but if God has condemned who am I to pardon; and if God has pardoned who am I to condemn. And as for going into my forum and claiming to know what the truth is:
A. I don't have a forum but if you want to make claims to me you can email me whenever you want. I rarely show up here though.
B. If you were to come into my forum and say you knew something I would want to discuss it with you.

You have your truth and I have mine.

Either I drop a rock and it goes up, or it goes down... wait a second... it only goes down. Saying you have your truth and I have mine is like saying I live on a planet where gravity works, and you don't... when we live on the same planet. Only one is correct, not both of us.

You think I am deceived and I think you are deceived, but it doesn't really matter if we respect each other.

Respect has nothing to do with speaking truth

Of course I think Jesus was serving the wrong man, but he didn't harm anyone. As far as I'm concerned he was just mislead.

Why do you think he was mislead and serving the wrong man?

It's kinda funny that you felt you had to react to the fact that I don't hate Jesus.

I reacted to the fact that you didn't understand Jesus... therefore it didn't matter if you liked Him or not. You don't know me, therefore if you said you didn't like me why would I care? But if you said I was a short, bald woman named Pam then I would feel the need to correct you in it, even though it might not make any difference at all in your opinion of me.

 

[Ðanisty]

Oh, and who told you this? I don't remember anything such as this... probably because it doesn't exist. Even if he were, then that would mean he had a demon, because if you use spells and magic then in order for what you actually do to be formed into some magical thing something has to interpret it into an action, and in such cases that means a demon. Ask anyone who has actually been saved out of the occult.

It's plainly obvious that Jesus is an occultist. It is not necessary to use demons in occultism. Now you are either ignorant or you are telling lies. Occult means secret. Occultism is using secret knowledge (knowledge not commonly known) to achieve an effect. Jesus used occultism nearly constantly. He turned water into wine (obviously an alchemy effect), he participated in ceremonies (baptism comes to mind), and he performed countless acts of healing magick. If you knew anything about the occult, you'd already know that none of these things requires a demon. The eucharist itself is ritual magick.

I'm not going to condemn them either... but if God has condemned who am I to pardon; and if God has pardoned who am I to condemn. And as for going into my forum and claiming to know what the truth is:
A. I don't have a forum but if you want to make claims to me you can email me whenever you want. I rarely show up here though.
B. If you were to come into my forum and say you knew something I would want to discuss it with you.

I am saying that I am not going into the Christian forums on this site and telling you what you should think or that what you think is wrong. As I understand the rules, you should not be doing that here either. Is there not a debate forum for this kind of crap?

Respect has nothing to do with speaking truth

Well, excuse me, I mistakenly assumed you were a gentleman. Now that we've cleared that up, why don't you get the hell out of this thread because Satanists really don't care what you think. How's that for truth?

Why do you think he was mislead and serving the wrong man?

Surely you're not really this dense. I'm a Luciferian.

I reacted to the fact that you didn't understand Jesus... therefore it didn't matter if you liked Him or not. You don't know me, therefore if you said you didn't like me why would I care? But if you said I was a short, bald woman named Pam then I would feel the need to correct you in it, even though it might not make any difference at all in your opinion of me.

You're making a lot of assumptions here. Jesus was a great guy and I sympathize with his suffering. The difference between you and I is that I'm capable of admitting that it was a needless suffering thrust upon him by his very own father. Why? I wish I had an answer for you, but there is no satisfactory answer. God is a lunatic which is precisely why I'm not jumping through his hoops.

Now, could we please return to the actual topic? If I had an interest in religious debate, that's the forum I'd be in.

 

[Fluffy]

Now, could we please return to the actual topic? If I had an interest in religious debate, that's the forum I'd be in.

This is a very good point. Individual religion sub forums are not there for debate and, as was pointed out earlier, are not there for others to attack that religion.

 

[Passerbye]

It's plainly obvious that Jesus is an occultist. It is not necessary to use demons in occultism. Now you are either ignorant or you are telling lies. Occult means secret. Occultism is using secret knowledge (knowledge not commonly known) to achieve an effect. Jesus used occultism nearly constantly. He turned water into wine (obviously an alchemy effect), he participated in ceremonies (baptism comes to mind), and he performed countless acts of healing magick. If you knew anything about the occult, you'd already know that none of these things requires a demon. The eucharist itself is ritual magick.

If you knew anything about the spiritual world you would know that the power used would need to be from God or Satan. Man cannot do such things without a spirit in them, or with them. If you want to say that He used secret knowledge then back it up. What secret knowledge did he use? He told someone else to go draw water and serve it. As far as what was said from the records of the event, Jesus never went near the water that was drawn. How could he have used secret knowledge in this, unless he had a demon do it because he wasn't able to.

Also, baptism was not a ritual. It symbolizes something, the old life passing away and the new life starting, but it isn't a magic ritual. In those times it was a regular Jewish custom for someone who became a Jew. It was to symbolize something that happened, not to call upon anything or do anything. In this case Jesus was saying 'Here is where I begin what God has told me to do'. The Holy Spirit came upon Him in the sight of John the Baptist (who seemed to be the only one who saw it) as a sign to the people that if they believed in John's baptism for repentance, belief in Jesus for salvation came next.

And as for healing magic, where does it say He used anything of the sort? He healed some people without even going anywhere near them, or doing anything at all but pray in his head and tell a guy to go home. He was surrounded by a crowd of people who would have stoned him (and crowds sometimes did try to stone Him for claiming to be God) if he was using magic, or anything that seemed like it, per their God given Law. Either the Spirit of God healed, or a demon. Your pick.

I am saying that I am not going into the Christian forums on this site and telling you what you should think or that what you think is wrong. As I understand the rules, you should not be doing that here either. Is there not a debate forum for this kind of crap?

Not trying to debate. You spoke wrongly of Jesus, and I simply came to try to correct that. If you were talking about my mother, brother, father, friend, or anyone else I knew would I not do the same. I probably have not changed your opinion of Him at all, but that doesn't matter. I told THE TRUTH; whether you accept it or not is not my business. That's your choice.

Well, excuse me, I mistakenly assumed you were a gentleman. Now that we've cleared that up, why don't you get the hell out of this thread because Satanists really don't care what you think. How's that for truth?

Why don't you care? Too scared that you just might be wrong? I care what people say. I try to always test what they say to see if it is true. Do you not care what is true? If so, why do you exist at all? I am not willing to exist for a lie, even though you think I do. Are you willing to exist for something that is just a lie? To die for a lie?

Surely you're not really this dense. I'm a Luciferian.

Still doesn't say why you hate God. I had my reasons for hating Him... what's yours?

You're making a lot of assumptions here. Jesus was a great guy and I sympathize with his suffering. The difference between you and I is that I'm capable of admitting that it was a needless suffering thrust upon him by his very own father. Why? I wish I had an answer for you, but there is no satisfactory answer. God is a lunatic which is precisely why I'm not jumping through his hoops.

Why, you ask. Lets look back. God starts the world up, and makes man in His likeness. He wants us to choose to follow Him so he allows temptation. We choose not to follow Him, and end up with the consequences because of it. He sends His Son to save us, because that is the only way it could be done. Jesus suffered for what your great great great great ect... grandpa and grandma did so many years ago and what we all continue to do also as their sons and daughters. God did what He could to save us from the mess we made of His world.

Now tell me, where did God go wrong? Seems pretty clear we put the leak in the ship, and He provided the life raft. Where do you get the idea that God did wrong. He gave us choice, we chose. If He didn't give us choice then it would seem He would have to be evil. Just wanting slaves.

Now Satanism, as far as I know of it, is about man being at the center of everything (at least that's a few of the Satanisms) A few others contain worship of a Satan like being. All of the ones I know exclude God from His own creation. Stealing from God what is His. If people want to go somewhere that's not God's world, He has prepared one. It's called Hell. People do wrong in His world and they refuse to be forgiven, they go to His jail. People want to exclude God from His world; He prepared a place where He isn't. That's the facts. That is truth.

But then you believe the rock will go up, and I believe it will go down. I guess it depends on what planet we are on.

Now, could we please return to the actual topic? If I had an interest in religious debate, that's the forum I'd be in.

Very true. If anyone cares to reply to what I just said, email me.

 

[Passerbye]

This is a very good point. Individual religion sub forums are not there for debate and, as was pointed out earlier, are not there for others to attack that religion.

I'm not attacking anyone. Would it be an attack if someone tried to tell someone that the holocaust happened if the other person believes it didn't?

 

[Halcyon]

***Thread closed for Moderator review.***