Bob Jones
Prove It!
What does the above have to do with temporary marriages? They have never been outlaw and still happen today.
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Pleasure Marriages in Islam
- Thread starter Mock Turtle
- Start date
Yes, I sensed that, but she was reasonably depicting what the programme offered - another review:
Islamic clerics selling girls as young as 9 for sex in ‘pleasure marriages’
Hello all,
As Islam has a very much different social lifestyle view than the West- and l will use the term west for convenience, although I know that many readers can challenge using this term.
Returning to my topic, the Islamic view and rules regarding social life is much different than the west..
This is causing much misunderstanding, that many is misusing for some reasons..
Now in Islam, there is nothing like having a girl friend that you can have fun with since you are a teenager, this causes many Muslims to think of the Idea having girl friend and boy friend in a manner that may be found strange to some westerners..
Similarly, when Islam talks about "marriage for a definite time period", people in the west think that it is a form of legalizing prostitution.
However, you need to look at the whole picture,
Islam is encouraging marriage at you ages- and don't try here to shift the topic of the age of marriage- however, I want to say that in Islam marriage is very important, to the degree that the prophet considered it as half of the religion of an induvial.
So Muslim youth in normal scenarios should be married people!
Now there will be scenarios where a Muslim man and a Muslim woman would like to live like that life of a girlfriend and boyfriend, while they can't get permanent marriage for one reason or another, the "definite time marriage" can sometimes solve this situation.
However, you must know that this kind of marriage is also governed by laws.
For instance after the marriage the girl will have a period in which she can't marry another man, this is called the Idda Period.
Now some people may misuse this marriage. Even permanent marriage is being misused.
We all have seen how when wars happen in some places, the problem of child marriage became apparent, as some people will make use of the poverty of some families in war places to satisfy their ill desires..
stvdv
Veteran Member
So you agree to pleasure marriage?
So you think this should be condoned?
Unless the girl is a "young virgin"?
You really believe this issue is irrelevant?
Be Aware of the consequences arising from such concepts AND that we live in 2019 AND that allowing such 'prostitution' gives rise to sex crimes like sex trafficking
stvdv
Veteran Member
Unless the girl is a "young virgin"?
You really believe this issue is irrelevant?
This issue is too important to just dismiss !
Religious men are known for:
1) Take verses very literal (if it suits them)
2) "Divine Sense before Common Sense"
3) Finding loopholes in the Law
Men in the West commit these crimes. At least in the West we "now" condemn these artrocities. You think Muslim men are any different 'men'? That they have a genetic predisposition "not to commit these crimes", esp. considering these dubious and many times obvious texts from Islam (like Hadith), taken serious by many Imaams, Muslims
"young virgin" girl excluded. Very tricky !
What does this "young" tell us?
1) baby young = 1,2,3,4,5,6
2) young = 7,8,9,10,11,12
3) teen young = 13,14,15,16,17,18
What does this "virgin" tell us?
1) baby non-virgin okay = 00-06
2) young non-virgin okay = 07-12
3) teen non-virgin okay = 13,14,15,16,17,18
Better safe than sorry; so I list them all:
4) baby & virgin okay (00-06) [I hope not]
5) young & virgin not okay = 07-12
6) teen & virgin okay = 13,14,15,16,17,18
Know "where there is smoke there is fire"
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stvdv
Veteran Member
stvdv
Veteran Member
Thank you for your elaboration on how things go in Islam. Good to know from an insider.
We all know "sick" things happen in war
Fact is: They happen `here and now` also
Both in the West but also in Middle East
First step is to acknowledge this
Not by saying only: "it happens in war"
But by admitting and adding:
1) True this happens also in Islam
2) True Islam scriptures are compromised
3) True we must expose these evils
4) Then elaborate how Islam is meant to be
Sharing 4) while omitting 1)2)3), which I see quite often with some religious people, makes it less believable.
Whenever a religion claims to be perfect and the only best one, this evil of 'hiding evil done in name of religion' will flourish. That needs no explanation.
This was a smart move of the founders of the religion to claim "this is the only highway". That way they created followers who "want to even die for their religion if needed". This is simple psychology. And history proves that it works (hence they use it of course).
To me, this alone proves already, that any religion claiming "my way is the only highway for all" has serious issues at its core and therefore is untrue. Because it is based on emotional blackmailing its members, which is totally "not done" (meaning should not be done)
We all know "sick" things happen in war
Fact is: They happen `here and now` also
Both in the West but also in Middle East
First step is to acknowledge this
Not by saying only: "it happens in war"
But by admitting and adding:
1) True this happens also in Islam
2) True Islam scriptures are compromised
3) True we must expose these evils
4) Then elaborate how Islam is meant to be
Sharing 4) while omitting 1)2)3), which I see quite often with some religious people, makes it less believable.
Whenever a religion claims to be perfect and the only best one, this evil of 'hiding evil done in name of religion' will flourish. That needs no explanation.
This was a smart move of the founders of the religion to claim "this is the only highway". That way they created followers who "want to even die for their religion if needed". This is simple psychology. And history proves that it works (hence they use it of course).
To me, this alone proves already, that any religion claiming "my way is the only highway for all" has serious issues at its core and therefore is untrue. Because it is based on emotional blackmailing its members, which is totally "not done" (meaning should not be done)
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stvdv
Veteran Member
According to Twelver Shia jurisprudence, preconditions for mutah are: The bride must not be married, she must be Muslim or belong to Ahl al-Kitab (People of the Book), she should be chaste, not addicted to fornication and she should not be a young virgin (if her father is absent and cannot give consent)
Do you base your claim "the whole Muhammad/Aisha affair is irrelevant"
on:
a) she should be chaste
b) not addicted to fornication
c) she should not be a young virgin (if her father is absent and cannot give consent)
c) Here it says that it's okay, if she is a virgin, as long as her father can give consent.
Looks to me like:
Organs (kidneys) for sale: NEW arrived fresh vaginas; sadly not the 'young virgin type'. And you call this irrelevant? Seems to me they see these girls (vaginas) as mergendise send from heaven by God and stamped by The Prophet Muhammad.
Something is way off here.
a) she should be chaste
This is the biggest "sick" joke ever. The men need sex and she should be chaste. Must be because he hopes that her purity will save him from his 'sin'.
b) she should not be addicted to fornication
Okay this even tops the other. Looks to me the men are the fornicators. The girls are just poor helpless young victims being sold as some kind of mergendise.
I can't put any smileys here
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
@stvdv ,
Thank you for your passionate replies
Honestly.
I think consenting adults should be able to be involved in a temporary marriage. On an emotional and spiritual basis, I think objectifying women and putting a price tag on sex ( aka prostitution ) is wrong. But, if it's consensual, private, and no one is harmed, I think it should be decriminalized.
I think if you look back at what I said, you'll see I was reacting to a specific reply ( post#8 ). In that post, a common, often repeated, easily refuted claim was made that Muhammad had a sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl. The comment about the alleged encounter was irrelevant. The poster was, IMO, just taking the opportunity to bash Islam. Please note: the rest of post#8 was interesting. But I still feel that it is lacking supporting evidence.
That's what I meant by irrelevant.
Thank you for your passionate replies
Honestly.
I think consenting adults should be able to be involved in a temporary marriage. On an emotional and spiritual basis, I think objectifying women and putting a price tag on sex ( aka prostitution ) is wrong. But, if it's consensual, private, and no one is harmed, I think it should be decriminalized.
I think if you look back at what I said, you'll see I was reacting to a specific reply ( post#8 ). In that post, a common, often repeated, easily refuted claim was made that Muhammad had a sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl. The comment about the alleged encounter was irrelevant. The poster was, IMO, just taking the opportunity to bash Islam. Please note: the rest of post#8 was interesting. But I still feel that it is lacking supporting evidence.
That's what I meant by irrelevant.
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Ah.... I apologize....
My brain was moving faster than my typing....
I should have said "the whole Muhammad/Aisha affair is irrelevant to this topic of pleasure marriages".
The reason I think it is irrelevant is: ( based on the wiki ) a "pleasure marriage" cannot include a young girl.
The Muhammad/Aisha affair is about sex with a minor. The "pleasure" marriage is about sex with adults. Therefore, even if the allegation about Muhammad/Aisha is true; it's irrelevant.
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sooda
Veteran Member
Camel Spiders were an internet hoax. No such thing.
sooda
Veteran Member
Aisha was born before the Call which would make her 19 not 9.
the reason behind "Mutah" is not explained.?
Even nowadays if you write a book, record it on audio and put it online it is considered published.
It's explained.
Exactly what is "condemned" in the west? Certainly not casual sex, not sex in return for a favour, not irresponsible sex without a care for bc...there are few restrictions in the West when it comes to sex.
You seem to think they have a genetic disposition to commit these crimes.
Tell us where.
One place is the 4th Chapter, specifically the verse of muta and the verses that precede it and go after, but there is other places as well if you keep in mind marriage is a form of "who your oaths give authority (to have sex with)" and Muta is said to be aside from marriage, a form of who our oaths give us authority to have sex with, which is halal dating but with conditions to safeguard any offspring that can come as a result.
Here I wrote this before:
I am going to be talking a lot of technical issues here, but I believe now, after much reflection, the issue of Muta, is all over the Quran, and is different then normal marriage.
Marriage is a type of long term version of "malakat Aymaanihim" (who your Oaths give authority regarding) but there is a non-long term commitment version of this, and I will be going through why I believe Quran has been mistranslated in this regard.
Aside from the absurdity of slave-owning, there is an issue, which some Quranist said, but doesn't make sense, that perhaps some people who needed a place to live where entrusted to Muslims. But that doesn't make sense that men have right to have sex with them, especially if those women are married themselves.
The problem with translating it as slave or right hand possessing type interpretation occurs in extreme in the following verse:
And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise. (4:24)
Another way to translate 4:24 in begining...is as follows:
And all married women (are forbidden to you) except those who your Oaths hold..
This is already seeming better why?
Well in the 1st translation, it would mean we are allowed having sex married women that are slaves. That is if two slaves are married - we can have sex with the poor slave's wife if we want to. Such absurd interpretation occurred in hadiths, but never mind them for this one second and let's read it rationally!
Say slavery was forbidden and condemned, as I do believe other verses outright to do so.
What can this mean? It would mean "All Married women except those who your Oath hold...", meaning except who you are married to from them.
This is all already a lot more rational then being able to have sex with a married slave woman!
Next, it continues:
, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those,
This means there is category aside from Married women.....so this means there is category of who your Oaths hold that is allowed, and so the verse here is the right place now to introduce the Muta:
provided that you seek (them) with your property, being of good will to them not committing fornication therefore to those whom you do muta to, give them their reward as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.
This verse talks about what was known historically as "Muta" but it was never that clear to me, till, I realized that Quran does outright forbid slavery.
The purpose of Muta then is emphasized in the verse that follows:
And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry chaste believing women, then of those whom your oaths hold authority from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other;
That is the purpose of Muta, if we can't get married because we don't have the means or circumstances make it hard, we can have Muta.
The verse then emphasizes on marriage:
Therefore marry them with the permission of their family,
That is you can do muta but if you are going to get married, you still need to ask the permission of their family!
and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken under good treatment, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is upon married women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you are patient is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Now every verse it makes more sense. It's always reminding "except their wives or who their oath's possess".
Now you see, the translations as slavery, it can be a good reason to reject Islam.
We live in a time - where we know how evil slavery is and it's hard to see these verses to be from God if they are indeed about slavery.
There is no reason to really though.
Instead it emphasized on "Muta".... and so the Quran explained with Muta exactly what the other category of who are Oath's possess are aside from who we marry, there is a 2nd category which is also allowed and it's called "muta" which means "enjoyment (that ceases)" .
Here I wrote this before:
I am going to be talking a lot of technical issues here, but I believe now, after much reflection, the issue of Muta, is all over the Quran, and is different then normal marriage.
Marriage is a type of long term version of "malakat Aymaanihim" (who your Oaths give authority regarding) but there is a non-long term commitment version of this, and I will be going through why I believe Quran has been mistranslated in this regard.
Aside from the absurdity of slave-owning, there is an issue, which some Quranist said, but doesn't make sense, that perhaps some people who needed a place to live where entrusted to Muslims. But that doesn't make sense that men have right to have sex with them, especially if those women are married themselves.
The problem with translating it as slave or right hand possessing type interpretation occurs in extreme in the following verse:
And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise. (4:24)
Another way to translate 4:24 in begining...is as follows:
And all married women (are forbidden to you) except those who your Oaths hold..
This is already seeming better why?
Well in the 1st translation, it would mean we are allowed having sex married women that are slaves. That is if two slaves are married - we can have sex with the poor slave's wife if we want to. Such absurd interpretation occurred in hadiths, but never mind them for this one second and let's read it rationally!
Say slavery was forbidden and condemned, as I do believe other verses outright to do so.
What can this mean? It would mean "All Married women except those who your Oath hold...", meaning except who you are married to from them.
This is all already a lot more rational then being able to have sex with a married slave woman!
Next, it continues:
, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those,
This means there is category aside from Married women.....so this means there is category of who your Oaths hold that is allowed, and so the verse here is the right place now to introduce the Muta:
provided that you seek (them) with your property, being of good will to them not committing fornication therefore to those whom you do muta to, give them their reward as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.
This verse talks about what was known historically as "Muta" but it was never that clear to me, till, I realized that Quran does outright forbid slavery.
The purpose of Muta then is emphasized in the verse that follows:
And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry chaste believing women, then of those whom your oaths hold authority from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other;
That is the purpose of Muta, if we can't get married because we don't have the means or circumstances make it hard, we can have Muta.
The verse then emphasizes on marriage:
Therefore marry them with the permission of their family,
That is you can do muta but if you are going to get married, you still need to ask the permission of their family!
and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken under good treatment, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is upon married women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you are patient is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Now every verse it makes more sense. It's always reminding "except their wives or who their oath's possess".
Now you see, the translations as slavery, it can be a good reason to reject Islam.
We live in a time - where we know how evil slavery is and it's hard to see these verses to be from God if they are indeed about slavery.
There is no reason to really though.
Instead it emphasized on "Muta".... and so the Quran explained with Muta exactly what the other category of who are Oath's possess are aside from who we marry, there is a 2nd category which is also allowed and it's called "muta" which means "enjoyment (that ceases)" .
As you can see it's specifically for those who don't find means to marriage and fear falling into evil! It was never meant to be a game or anything like that.
The context of Quran and honoring women is clear but God understands not everyone is going to have means to marriage and this is relevant to today where career sometimes takes a long time to establish and parents and women look for financial security for marriage.
Muta is introduced in this context, and so joins the category with marriage of "who your oaths given control over (to touch and have sex with)", but is not a marriage.
Muta is neither marriage nor a first resort nor encouraged but a way that God provided for people in hard circumstances!
The context of Quran and honoring women is clear but God understands not everyone is going to have means to marriage and this is relevant to today where career sometimes takes a long time to establish and parents and women look for financial security for marriage.
Muta is introduced in this context, and so joins the category with marriage of "who your oaths given control over (to touch and have sex with)", but is not a marriage.
Muta is neither marriage nor a first resort nor encouraged but a way that God provided for people in hard circumstances!
firedragon
Veteran Member
I agree with you that this whole thing sounds nonsensical, but when you make a statement like "allowing such 'prostitution' gives rise to sex crimes like sex trafficking" maybe a research should be done with all aspects considered. I think you are making your opinion sound like fact.
It specifically said "this is for who fears falling into a curse." and in "for who can't find a means to have sex with the women who would be married (to them)" to do. Meaning, if you can't get married this is an option! But only if you really are in fear of falling into a curse, otherwise, it's better to just seek marriage and be patient!