Pledge of Allegiance in Virginia

[Godless Dave]

I just don't see why y'all think that it's such a terrible thing to make a commitment to one's community - to support the interests of something greater than oneself.

I don't, at all. But that's not what the Pledge of Allegiance is. Especially if it's mandatory.

 

[lilithu]

Salutes are rendered as a sign of respect and when reporting to a superior officer - that is accomplished only in uniform. Civilians use the hand over the heart as a salute and is inapporpiate for military members .....
But maybe pride enters into it as well.

I'd say that you've earned your pride.

And I'd say that your not saluting or crossing your heart is not the same thing as a kid not wanting to recite the pledge.



Again, I totally uphold his right to do such. That's not the issue for me.

 

[lilithu]

The pledge of allegiance is a formal declaration of moral abdication. It puts the pledger in a dangerous moral position, inasmuch as one cannot voluntarily, "in the eyes of God," divorce oneself of individual responsibility for one's actions. Still, it morally binds one to the whims of whomever one swore allegiance to. He's "damned if he does and damned if he doesn't".

You read a lot more into the pledge than I do. There's nothing in the words that says to me that I'm abdicating moral responsibility. Quite the contrary, I see it as a promise to take up moral responsibility. My allegiance to my country means (to me) that I will do what I can to make sure that she lives up to the ideals of "liberty and justice for all." It means that I recognize that there is something more important than my own interests.

If that's truly how you feel about the pledge, I respect that. Do you really think that is why the student doesn't want to recite it?

 

[Valjean]

"Do you really think that is why the student doesn't want to recite it?"

Yes, I suspect that's exactly the reason. Some people take oaths seriously, as morally binding. Others treat them as inconsequential displays of sentiment. People willing to suffer the opprobrium of their community for non-compliance with community standards usually fall into the former category.

"I pledge allegience to the flag"... = I pledge allegience, right or wrong, to the government and its policies. = "I will support any government policy, right or wrong, moral or immoral."

This interpretation is why people oppose the loyalty oath. By this interpretation it is clearly an abdication of moral responsibility.

 

[jewscout]

Damn this state sucks!

 

[painted wolf]

Lilithu- That was why I never said the pledge... I didn't feel I could give my alegience to a piece of cloth and vow to follow it always and without question. If the morals that the flag stands for become corrupted I will not stand behind it. I will not be forced to pledge my aligance to anything... it is a hollow act that way.

wa:do

 

[lilithu]

Some people take oaths seriously, as morally binding. Others treat them as inconsequential displays of sentiment. People willing to suffer the opprobrium of their community for non-compliance with community standards usually fall into the former category.

Um... I take my promises seriously whether they are oaths or no. But there is nothing in the words that specifically favors your interepretation over mine.

"I pledge allegience to the flag"... = I pledge allegience, right or wrong, to the government and its policies. = "I will support any government policy, right or wrong, moral or immoral."

This interpretation is why people oppose the loyalty oath. By this interpretation it is clearly an abdication of moral responsibility.

OK, but at least consider that there is more than one way to interpret. I respect your interpretation and certainly see why you object to the pledge as a result of it, but I would never have come to your interpretation on my own.

 

[Valjean]

Understood and aknowledged, lilithu. I do tend to be unusually wary of words.

 

[retrorich]

Who said anything about need?

There is a huge amount of grey area between reciting a pledge to one's country and Nazi Germany. I just don't see why y'all think that it's such a terrible thing to make a commitment to one's community - to support the interests of something greater than oneself.

An American citizen should be presumed to be loyal to America, unless he/she demonstrates otherwise. There is no need to reaffirm it with a daily memorized pledge. An anti-America terrorist is just as capable of reciting the pledge of allegiance as a loyal American. The pledge is meaningless and controversial--especially with the "under God" addition. We would be better off without it.

 

[Pah]

TranceAm,

I don't read "exclusivity" in the pledge so I do not see any lying that others might see. Lying would come based on actions and words apart from the pledge when allegiance to the counrty and it's principles are countered by anothor authority.

Bob

 

[lilithu]

An American citizen should be presumed to be loyal to America, unless he/she demonstrates otherwise. There is no need to reaffirm it with a daily memorized pledge. An anti-America terrorist is just as capable of reciting the pledge of allegiance as a loyal American. The pledge is meaningless and controversial--especially with the "under God" addition. We would be better off without it.

I don't see it as a test of loyalty. It is a ritual that reaffirms our sense of community. As with any ritual, people can go thru the motions without the actual feeling, and we all agree that the feeling is more important than the ritual. But that doesn't mean the that the ritual is worthless.

 

[Pah]

Wouldn't for a Christian that Authority be God/Jesus?
And wouldn't the religious decrees overrule America's pledge, if its constitution or bill of rights make things possible that the bible would never allow? (Gay rights par example.)

Or do you think there ?will/is? in heaven ?be? a "special" place where people still pledge to America?

Well, I could consider that a Christian might make a pledge without lying if the national principle was the freedom to hold views opposing the Constitution. However, actually diminishing the Constitution by instituting Christian only principles should preclude that Christian from taking the pledge.

Bob

 

[retrorich]

Lilithu- That was why I never said the pledge... I didn't feel I could give my alegience to a piece of cloth and vow to follow it always and without question. If the morals that the flag stands for become corrupted I will not stand behind it. I will not be forced to pledge my aligance to anything... it is a hollow act that way.

wa:do

Well said, painted wolf! Frubals to you!

 

[retrorich]

So true.
So how do you define an American Christian?
Loyal to America as long as its leaders/laws and policies obey Gods laws as written by Gods representatives?
Can a Christian then be an American? (And not lie during the pledge!)
Can a Muslim then be an American? (And not lie during the pledge!)
Can a Double passport holder be an American? (And not lie during the pledge!)
Can anyone that believes there is a "bigger picture" then this physical reality where they allign themselves with, claim in one way or another to be loyal to America? (And not lie during the pledge!)

"Under God" then just becomes another statement to subject or subvert the common meme of America as found among Americans into a higher memepackage of god.
(Unless of course proof is found/produced that beyond a shadow of a doubt proves that the deity self founded America. And that would then be the famous 11th commandment. "Thy shall have to other coutries before my America.")

If one draws a line on the ground and makes statements what is on the other side of the line, you include everything else not defined on your side of the line.

Anyone want to pick up this glove?

I would like to add another question: Can an atheist be a loyal American?

 

[retrorich]

As a fast answer and without further defining what a "loyal American" stands for.

I would say yes, even more a loyal Earth citizen.
As long as its govenment on any level has no connection/opinion or laws concerning individual spiritual matters and as long as there is Freedom (For individual spiritual matters) and Justice (Concerning infringement of others right to Freedom.) for all, there should be no problem.

Not believing in a deity doesn't mean that you can't believe that a piece of this Earth or better its inhibitants think that their memepackage is something special or even better when compared to other (virtual and sometimes with fences or natural boundaries.) communities that worship other flags or songs on this Earth.

You agree?

Could you please reword that post. I can't understand any of it.

 

[retrorich]

Rewording is hard since it is very compressed, I can add some enhancing thoughts to it that may help you understand what I try to communicate.

As a fast answer and without further defining what a "loyal American" stands for.

< A "loyal American" is a person that basically could, at this moment co-sign the constitution, and bill of rights, and fight to the death defending it for future generations. (Since America is defined by those documents.) >

I would say yes, even more a loyal Earth citizen.

As long as its govenment on any level has no connection/opinion

<Seperation state-church>

or laws

<blue laws, and other by personal religious inspired documents inspired laws.>

concerning individual spiritual matters

< Without the group form, one can still be a Christian/Muslim or whatever religion. >

and as long as there is Freedom (For individual spiritual matters.) and Justice (Concerning infringement of others right to Freedom.) for all, there should be no problem.

< That should be crystalclear >

Not believing in a deity

< being for example an Atheist >

doesn't mean that you can't believe that a piece of this Earth

< in this case America. >

or better its inhibitants

< Americans >

think that their memepackage

< every thought or icon connected to or defining America in one's mind. Without that memepackage, the piece of Earth would still exist, but not America. >

is something special or even better when compared to other (virtual and sometimes with fences or natural boundaries.)

< pieces of Earth where other memepackages are dominant in the form of "countries" .>

communities that worship other flags or songs on this Earth.

< National hymn's in National Languages come to mind. >

You agree?

I hope this helps understanding.

Not really, but thanks anyway.

 

[Jaymes]

TraceAm: I don't mean to be rude, but is English your first language?