pledges, schools, and allegiance.

[blackout]

My 9 year old decided he wants to try school this year.
(he has been home educated from the start)

Not wanting to step on his toes, or squelch his desire for an adventure
I will be calling the school later this week.
I'm trying to think of all kinds of stuff i need to tell him
that he doesn't know about schools.

So In the car tonight I was passing by the christian radio station,
and they had a little kid reciting the pledge of allegiance.
(as if it were something moving and patriotic)
And I went... "oh doh!". *chest tightens....

Now, I do not recite, believe in or subscribe to "pledges".
Any of them. Save perhaps "Unto thine own self be True".

Neither do i "teach" encourage or ask my kids to pledge themselves to anything or anyone.
What they do as they grow older and understand the meanings of things, will be their own choice.

Now I have told my son,
he doesn't have to say it.
Learn to say it if you want,
don't say it if you don't want.
Just stand up and don't make any faces.

But I will need to tell his teacher (principle? ugh) something.

Personally I think its none of their God-d**n business.
And I see the whole thing as an act of patriotic propaganda,
pressuring kids in to pledging some sort of allegiance to something
they don't even understand.

I mean, what the hell does "allegiance" mean anyway,
if it's expected... demanded... of you. duh.

But I don't feel like getting myself sent in to some govt. list
my kids first week of school.
Or making enemies with the whole system until at least month three...

Does anyone have any experience with this sort of thing?
Either you, or someone you know...
their kids do not "recite" the pledge at school?

Can someone? anyone? give me a little heads up here?

And if y'all slam me now...
at least I'll have a thicker skin when I walk in the building next week.

Thanks,
~Vi~

 

[blackout]

Nobody?

 

[whereismynotecard]

Well, I don't have any kids, but I know that when I went to school, I used to say it when I was really young, bacause I was just doing whatever the teacher said without questioning it, but as I got older I stopped saying it and didn't put my hand over my heart. I did stand up though, most of the time, just because I didn't like how everyone looked at me like I was a nazi if I didn't stand...

Most teachers were okay with it, but I had one teacher who looked at me like I just told the whole class to **** off one time when I just kept reading my book while everyone else said the pledge of allegence... X_X

So... Some teachers will be nazis about it, but that's the price you have to pay... You can just do it so they won't be mean to you, or you could not do it to prove the point that you don't have to...

 

[blackout]

Thank you so much Hannah for your reply.

It at least gives me some confidence that we are not alone in this.
Perhaps others have come before us at this school?

But then as you said most young kids just follow blindly as they are led.
Thing is I have never taught my children that this is a good or desirable trait.

Because I don't think it is. *sigh.

 

[whereismynotecard]

Well... it sucks that some people will be mean to you for not doing what they do, even though it doesn't matter... If it was my child, I'd tell him or her to do whatever they felt was right, and if anyone had a problem with it, I'd talk to them about it.

Like my younger sister, for example, is 10 years old, and doesn't believe in god, and I tell her that she doesn't have to say the pledge if she doesn't want to, because of the "under god" part, and she doesn't have to say any of it for that matter, because she shouldn't have to pledge allegence to this country if she doesn't want to. I don't know if she says it or not. Sometimes it's easier to just go with the flow. It's just something you have to choose...

It sucks though... Hopefully it will not be a problem for you guys. Hopefully you'll be dealing with reasonable teachers. When I'm a teacher, I won't make my kids say the pledge... Hopefully the school board won't try to make me lead them in the pledge at all... It is almost a requirement of teachers to believe in God... Do you think anyone would hire me if they knew I was an atheist?? I don't. Sorry for getting off topic, but it just makes me mad that I have to lie about my beliefs because I think I won't be hired because of it.

 

[Valjean]

I think that, to a 9 year old, peer pressure is pretty much an overwhelming force. Also, other children of that age do not understand dissent, or diversity, for that matter. Anything out of the ordinary in appearance or behavior is likely to attract negative attention.

I applaud you and Hanna's dislike of the loyalty oath. I also find Hannah's feeling that others would think of her as a Nazi for sitting out the oath rather amusing inasmuch as the only other country I can think of that expected people to recite a loyalty oath was 1930s Germany. If anything was reminiscent of Nazis it would be the people reciting the oath!

Were you aware that, until WW II, the American oath was recited with the right hand extended foreward and upward, toward the flag, with the palm down? Maybe, Hannah, if you showed your teachers an old newsreel of a classroom of kids giving the Nazi salute as they recited the oath they might be more tolerant of your dissent.

 

[blackout]

I think that, to a 9 year old, peer pressure is pretty much an overwhelming force. Also, other children of that age do not understand dissent, or diversity, for that matter. Anything out of the ordinary in appearance or behavior is likely to attract negative attention.

I applaud you and Hanna's dislike of the loyalty oath. I also find Hannah's feeling that others would think of her as a Nazi for sitting out the oath rather amusing inasmuch as the only other country I can think of that expected people to recite a loyalty oath was 1930s Germany. If anything was reminiscent of Nazis it would be the people reciting the oath!

Were you aware that, until WW II, the American oath was recited with the right hand extended foreward and upward, toward the flag, with the palm down? Maybe, Hannah, if you showed your teachers an old newsreel of a classroom of kids giving the Nazi salute as they recited the oath they might be more tolerant of your dissent.

Wow Seyorni.

Fabulous post.

 

[whereismynotecard]

I think that, to a 9 year old, peer pressure is pretty much an overwhelming force. Also, other children of that age do not understand dissent, or diversity, for that matter. Anything out of the ordinary in appearance or behavior is likely to attract negative attention.

I applaud you and Hanna's dislike of the loyalty oath. I also find Hannah's feeling that others would think of her as a Nazi for sitting out the oath rather amusing inasmuch as the only other country I can think of that expected people to recite a loyalty oath was 1930s Germany. If anything was reminiscent of Nazis it would be the people reciting the oath!

Were you aware that, until WW II, the American oath was recited with the right hand extended foreward and upward, toward the flag, with the palm down? Maybe, Hannah, if you showed your teachers an old newsreel of a classroom of kids giving the Nazi salute as they recited the oath they might be more tolerant of your dissent.

I don't have to worry about the pledge anymore. I'm in University now, so no one expects anyone to say it.

 

[blackout]

I don't have to worry about the pledge anymore. I'm in University now, so no one expects anyone to say it.

Hmmm... why do you suppose that is?

 

[whereismynotecard]

Hmmm... why do you suppose that is?

Because they always did it the first thing in the morning, and not everyone has an 8:00 class every day, so they don't know when to say it, or maybe they've figured out that they shouldn't tell us what to do about stuff like that.

 

[blackout]

Maybe because it would be ridiculous,
and everybody knows it at that age.

Easier to just get young kids to recite things they don't understand.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hmmm... why do you suppose that is?

Two reasons come to mind:

- university is typically more about learning and less about indoctrination than elementary and high school are.

- in university, there's no single time when everyone starts class that would be suitable for stuff like this.

 

[whereismynotecard]

Maybe because it would be ridiculous,
and everybody knows it at that age.

Easier to just get young kids to recite things they don't understand.

Two reasons come to mind:

- university is typically more about learning and less about indoctrination than elementary and high school are.

- in university, there's no single time when everyone starts class that would be suitable for stuff like this.

Yep. All of those things.

 

[blackout]

I'm thinkin' it might be fun to put a "spell" on it...
re-"cast" it...

"I fudge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america"...etc etc...

lol. That rather fixes the whole thing. don't it.
(maybe I should've been a ninja after all...)

 

[whereismynotecard]

Just as long as you take out the "under god" part... I'd like to say "Above satan" instead.

 

[blackout]

yes honey... but you see we're "fudging" all of this allegiance...
even the "god" part.

And hey! if your God is Satan, then when you say it...
that's exactly what it means.

There's lots of ways to "cast & spin" a thing.

 

[blackout]

When life hands you stupidity....
"Make fun".

~UltraViolet~

 

[whereismynotecard]

I don't have a god. I'd just like to offend people who treat me like I'm not as good as them because of their beliefs.

 

[blackout]

Ahhhhhh.... she's a true Pirate that Hannah is..... irate:

 

[whereismynotecard]

irate: Arrr... Ye know it.