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Policy Poll: COVID-Related Posts

What do you think of the current COVID policy (linked to in the OP)?

  • Option #1.

    Votes: 7 17.5%
  • Option #2.

    Votes: 14 35.0%
  • Option #3.

    Votes: 6 15.0%
  • Option #4.

    Votes: 22 55.0%

  • Total voters
    40
  • Poll closed .
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
A lot of scientific issues may seem "one-sided" because certain views have no peer-reviewed evidence or any solid expert backing.

Regardless, my example was meant to highlight that, in one way or another, someone has to decide which sources are reputable given the undesirability of the alternative (i.e., allowing any and all sources and the claims they make).

US it's painfully so. There's a history on how propaganda is used in wars and things like that to get people to think a certain way or to act for a certain cause. Just since there is such a division and propaganda has negative connotations, either its not seen because the information confirms one's opinions or it's like a sore thumb but justified because of the situation.

I don't know about other countries, just what I observe here.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Is it akin to having information that may talk about suicide from both angles but censored because some may commit suicide over misrepresented information?

I don't think that's really comparable, since COVID is a contagious disease. You can't infect someone else with suicidal thoughts.

We still moderate posts encouraging suicide, though.

Unless it's medical advice, illegal, and things of that nature, I'm not sure how conflicting information is dangerous to someone reading it from social media.

Is there a criteria to base what's dangerous or what's a difference of opinion?

It's simple: We're currently in the middle of a pandemic that has killed millions of people worldwide, and we know from major medical organizations in different countries that masks, vaccines, and other precautionary measures are essential in the effort to combat this disease.

Basically, anything encouraging people to forgo any of these medically advised precautions is dangerous, since it effectively encourages a course of action that demonstrably increases one's chances of catching the virus and infecting others. So we're treating any misinformation that aims to discourage masking, vaccination, etc., as dangerous per our COVID policy.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Basically, anything encouraging people to forgo any of these medically advised precautions is dangerous, since it effectively encourages a course of action that demonstrably increases one's chances of catching the virus and infecting others.

This is the basic gist. Would talking about information against COVID pandemic make RF liable for encouraging misinformation?

Morally, we can't determine if posting information will lead someone to believe something different than they already do. So, unless it's a liability thing, I can't think of another reason it would be dangerous outside of staff discretion.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I don't think that's really comparable, since COVID is a contagious disease. You can't infect someone else with suicidal thoughts.

We still moderate posts encouraging suicide, though.

Oh. It's similar because it says posting misinformation may influence readers to take certain actions and think certain thoughts.

Unlike suicide, though, people who read about COVID information or misinformation more likely know what they are reading. The suicide thing is a liability issue because if someone takes the misinformation to heart, they may commit suicide. Unlike misinformation from COVID where a person may read a conspiracy theory on social media but double check it on CDC and go with the experts.

With COVID misinformation, it's not giving people credit of doing their own research unlike suicide where one is suffering from a mental health condition and the influence would be more vital than reading about, say, vaccines changing one's DNA. Different context.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
No, that is not it -- you are omitting very important information.

Yes, it is true that COVID kills only when you actually are infected with it (vaccinated or not).

BUT, you left out this (from the CDC) -- that among those who are infected, those who are unvaccinated are 11 times more likely to die than those who are not. That is a big number.

Another big number, by the way, is that as of today, 1 in every 500 Americans has died as a result of COVID (665,000 people).

Yes "and" that doesn't exclude my point COVID kills not vaccination status.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Yes "and" that doesn't exclude my point COVID kills not vaccination status.
Vaccinated status changes the odds. Such as, if we both get sick you are 11 times more likely to die than I am just because you aren't vaccinated.
What you're saying is similar to trying go say smoking doesn't kill, the cancer and heart disease do.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Vaccinated status changes the odds. Such as, if we both get sick you are 11 times more likely to die than I am just because you aren't vaccinated.
What you're saying is similar to trying go say smoking doesn't kill, the cancer and heart disease do.

Yes, and, my comment still stands. Adding details doesn't change or refute my point, it just offers context to it.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Vaccinated status changes the odds. Such as, if we both get sick you are 11 times more likely to die than I am just because you aren't vaccinated.
What you're saying is similar to trying go say smoking doesn't kill, the cancer and heart disease do.
It's the same claim over & over & over & over.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Yes, and, my comment still stands. Adding details doesn't change or refute my point, it just offers context to it.
Not wearing a seat belt doesn't kill, getting violently ejected from the car does.
It just doesn't work like that. You might as well say a fast food diet doesn't kill. But it's a march to poor health and slow suicide.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Not wearing a seat belt doesn't kill, getting violently ejected from the car does.
It just doesn't work like that. You might as well say a fast food diet doesn't kill. But it's a march to poor health and slow suicide.

What's with the seatbelt analogy??
Getting Covid-19 vaccine is like wearing a seatbelt, says Dr Ronan Glynn | The Irish Post

I'm sure you didn't make it up off the top of your head?

How does this have to do with saying COVID kills and vaccination status does not??
(Everything you add to it doesn't dispute it, so... what's the deal?)
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
This is the basic gist. Would talking about information against COVID pandemic make RF liable for encouraging misinformation?

Morally, we can't determine if posting information will lead someone to believe something different than they already do. So, unless it's a liability thing, I can't think of another reason it would be dangerous outside of staff discretion.

I don't know what you mean exactly. Liable as in legally liable? I don't know, since RF is based in the U.S. and I'm not familiar with such nuances of U.S. law.

The policy isn't based on legal liability or lack thereof; it's based on our view that the forum shouldn't serve as a platform for dangerous misinformation, whether that be encouragement of suicide or forgoing medical precautions during a pandemic. We don't believe that such posts align with the forum's mission statement or the atmosphere that we have strived to maintain on the forum for years.

And going by the current results of the poll, it's clear that the vast majority of members also don't want RF to serve as a platform for dangerous misinformation and conspiracy theories.

Oh. It's similar because it says posting misinformation may influence readers to take certain actions and think certain thoughts.

Unlike suicide, though, people who read about COVID information or misinformation more likely know what they are reading. The suicide thing is a liability issue because if someone takes the misinformation to heart, they may commit suicide. Unlike misinformation from COVID where a person may read a conspiracy theory on social media but double check it on CDC and go with the experts.

With COVID misinformation, it's not giving people credit of doing their own research unlike suicide where one is suffering from a mental health condition and the influence would be more vital than reading about, say, vaccines changing one's DNA. Different context.

Again, your point is unclear, but what I gather of it seems disconnected from the comparison you drew. A suicidal person may not necessarily accept pro-suicide arguments either, but we're not risking that and not allowing such posts here, because we believe they run contrary to the forum's mission statement. Same as posts discouraging medically advised safety precautions related to the pandemic.

Also, a focal point here is that questions such as "What actions can help to combat the spread of COVID?" and "Are vaccines and masks effective precautionary measures against COVID?" are questions that only qualified experts can answer, and so far, the vast majority of expert organizations worldwide recommend masks and vaccines among a slew of other measures to protect oneself and others from death or severe illness from COVID.

Doing one's "own research" doesn't negate said expert consensus, and we can't defer to individual members' views on medical issues during a pandemic that has killed millions of people worldwide and hundreds of thousands in the U.S., where RF is based. Instead, we rely on medical organizations and keep any unqualified and personal opinions isolated from these questions.

That's one of the reasons we're currently looking into allowing a broader range of (reputable) sources: if a peer-reviewed study from a well-known medical source, such as Mayo Clinic, contradicts mainstream medical consensus, we don't believe it's our position to prohibit the posting of such information. On the other hand, claims and (mis)information lacking proper expert citation or peer review and discouraging safety measures espoused by medical organizations are both dangerous and unevidenced.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Also, a note to everyone here: This thread isn't for debating the pandemic itself or aspects thereof; it's to gauge member sentiment and thoughts on the current policy and the upcoming revisions. Please avoid arguing here or turning this into yet another debate thread about the pandemic itself.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I keep telling myself I need to number my posts.
I don't know what you mean exactly. Liable as in legally liable? I don't know, since RF is based in the U.S. and I'm not familiar with such nuances of U.S. law.

The policy isn't based on legal liability or lack thereof; it's based on our view that the forum shouldn't serve as a platform for dangerous misinformation, whether that be encouragement of suicide or forgoing medical precautions during a pandemic. We don't believe that such posts align with the forum's mission statement or the atmosphere that we have strived to maintain on the forum for years.

And going by the current results of the poll, it's clear that the vast majority of members also don't want RF to serve as a platform for dangerous misinformation and conspiracy theories.

1. US if you promote anything illegal or, like the misinformation, encouraging someone to do something illegal the site, social media, whoever can be held legally liable. Private sites, though, its up to owner's discretion unless it's a very direct breach of law.

2. I picked number 4 too. I'd second @Twilight Hue post 42: I'd rather see a disclaimer personally though clearly stated it is not the opinion or endorsement of the forum and see those restrictions removed as a suggestion.

Again, your point is unclear, but what I gather of it seems disconnected from the comparison you drew. A suicidal person may not necessarily accept pro-suicide arguments either, but we're not risking that and not allowing such posts here, because we believe they run contrary to the forum's mission statement. Same as posts discouraging medically advised safety precautions related to the pandemic.

3. I guess my concern is how would the criteria be set more so than the misinformation themselves

Also, a focal point here is that questions such as "What actions can help to combat the spread of COVID?" and "Are vaccines and masks effective precautionary measures against COVID?" are questions that only qualified experts can answer, and so far, the vast majority of expert organizations worldwide recommend masks and vaccines among a slew of other measures to protect oneself and others from death or severe illness from COVID.

4. Its good if we have people say in their opinion and cite their sources when talking so the citations can be taken in context of how the poster. Beneficial for both parties.

Doing one's "own research" doesn't negate said expert consensus, and we can't defer to individual members' views on medical issues during a pandemic that has killed millions of people worldwide and hundreds of thousands in the U.S., where RF is based. Instead, we rely on medical organizations and keep any unqualified and personal opinions isolated from these questions.

5. We 'all' do. Just saying, in my opinion, keep the rules as transparent as possible.

That's one of the reasons we're currently looking into allowing a broader range of (reputable) sources: if a peer-reviewed study from a well-known medical source, such as Mayo Clinic, contradicts mainstream medical consensus, we don't believe it's our position to prohibit the posting of such information. On the other hand, claims and (mis)information lacking proper expert citation or peer review and discouraging safety measures espoused by medical organizations are both dangerous and unevidenced.

6. That'll take awhile, I'm sure. I'm just throwing this idea out without thinking into it, maybe have members list in "resources" authoritative and possible legitimate sites they may use from their respective countries. That way we all have some idea or criteria where staff is basing their information on. There is secondary material, for example, a media website that links to the CDC that may or may not be missed. A lot of news sites link back to where they got their citations... so maybe a list of secondary sources and primary sources in rules can give an idea of other places to get information from...

that is, if you're going with option 3 or 4.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
What's with the seatbelt analogy??
Getting Covid-19 vaccine is like wearing a seatbelt, says Dr Ronan Glynn | The Irish Post

I'm sure you didn't make it up off the top of your head?

How does this have to do with saying COVID kills and vaccination status does not??
(Everything you add to it doesn't dispute it, so... what's the deal?)
Because it's very comparable. Both are very simple and easy things to do that help keep us, and very much so they both save lives while going without is just a needless and reckless risk.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I think RF might just need to offer classes on obtaining, evaluating, accessing, and using information.
I'd be all for it if that would have any impact. Imagine a creation vs science or paranormal debate where only reputable sources are used.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Because it's very comparable. Both are very simple and easy things to do that help keep us, and very much so they both save lives while going without is just a needless and reckless risk.

a. Not wearing a seatbelt doesn't get you into a car crash.
b. Not taking the vaccine doesn't make you sick with COVID.

-

c. If you drink and drive you have a higher chance of getting into an accident
d. If you edit social distance, go to condense hotspot areas, even traveling you have a higher chance of catching COVID.

*What causes the accident is the drinking and driving or social distancing and traveling not the seatbelt and vaccination status.

-

a. The difference is risk of catching COVID as an unvaccinated person depends on the level of risk you take.
b. The difference between getting into an accident is whether or not you drink and drive not wearing no seatbelt.

*The analogy only works if two things are met:

1. No seatbelts cause accidents (no vaccine cause COVID)
2. No seatbelt puts the passenger in danger (not getting vaccinated puts others in danger).

However, without drinking or driving and without being unvaccinated doesn't increase your risk of crash or catching COVID.

Just (sum):

Edit
1. IF you without seatbelt and you crash your impact would be less.
2. IF you are(edit) nvaccinated and catch COVID the impact of COVID would be less.

*Neither of them (seatbelts and not being vaccinated) increase your risk of crash or getting COVID.

*The thing is.... drinking and driving has a higher chance of getting into an accident than catching COVID insofar if you are reckless driving and people are in the way you WILL harm them. Not being vaccinated has a higher chance of getting you dead insofar you put yourself at high risk of COVID to POSSIBLLY infect a person.
 
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Heyo

Veteran Member
*The analogy only works if two things are met:
I think you don't get what the analogy is for.

Not wearing a seatbelt increases the risk of injury.
Not using masks/getting vaccinated increases the risk of illness.
Laws curtailing personal freedom (mandatory seatbelts->fines) are constitutional.
Laws curtailing personal freedom (mandatory masks/vaccines) are constitutional.

What I'm more interested in is what the precedent/analogy for the Covid regulations on RF is.
 
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