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Political Standings

Were do you stand politically speaking with Israel?


  • Total voters
    10

xkatz

Well-Known Member
I am curious were my fellow Jewish brothers and sisters stand politically speaking in terms of Israel related politics.

For me personally, I believe that there should be a State of Israel, however, I don't think it should what it's like in it's current form. I believe that peace and trust must be forged with the Palestinians (with their own sovereign lands) in order for Israel to succeed and in order to perhaps herald in the coming for the Messiah. We need to tear down those walls! Israel cannot stay the same way politically either. Their is too much of a struggle between religion vs secular values. In the end, I think Israel should reform so it is fully secular, but embraces it's Jewish past and heritage. In the end however, I do not either support Zionism and Anti-Zionism. I think both extremes are harmful to Israel and perhaps even Jewish political identity in general (if that makes sense).
 
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Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
A two state solution is the only practical possibility at this time, but I'm not holding my breath that it will happen any time soon, the extremists on both side want to keep things in turmoil. A nice separation of 'church' and state like the US has would be a good thing, IMHO.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
I am completely committed to the State of Israel, and I do believe that it could be the first step on a long, long road to redemption and moshiach.

That said, I also think that several things in Israel have got to change, and the sooner the better:

1. The Rabbanut (state-sponsored Chief Rabbinate) has got to go. I have no problem to with the notion of the state providing monies to fund educational institutions or food pantries or whatnot run by religious groups, but all have to get equal money, regardless of sect or denomination. Likewise, I have no problem with the government accepting religious marriages and divorces as legally binding. But there needs to be civil marriage and divorce, and the marriages and divorces of all rabbis must be equally accepted by the government, regardless of sect or denomination. And if there's going to be a national organization offering hashgachah (certification of kashrut), then it needs to be free of corruption, and conforming to the usually minimum halakhic standards, not subject to every Haredi rabbi's nutty attempts to become ever more needlessly strict. No segregation of sexes on public buses. No officially segregated sidewalks in religious neighborhoods. And so on. In short, Israel has got to really be The Jewish State: that is, the State of all the Jews. Judaism in Israel should not be a Haredi monopoly, it should be pluralistic, because the Jewish people is not all Haredi. Or even mostly Haredi. This will make Israel more attractive to Jews from all over the world, and provide Israeli Jews infinitely more options, choices, and religious freedoms than they currently enjoy.

2. No more mass army exemptions or endless welfare for yeshivah students and kollel boys (Haredi youths who spend all day, every day, learning Torah). In Pirkei Avot it says:
רבן גמליאל בנו של רבי יהודה הנשיא אומר, יפה תלמוד תורה עם דרך ארץ, שיגיעת שניהם משכחת עוון; וכל תורה שאין עימה מלאכה, סופה בטילה וגוררת עוון
Rabban Gamliel son of Rabbi Yehudah Ha-Nasi said: Torah is best accompanied with secular life, for the two of them together cause sin to be remitted; Torah unaccompanied by secular work will end in meaninglessness, and will cause sin.
In other words: "Get a job, sha na na na, sha na na na na: get a job." Learn Torah, of course. Learn plenty of Torah. But get a job, participate in society, and since you're Israeli, serve your time in the damn army, like everybody else. Nobody is too holy to serve. If you're a pacifist, then do your civil volunteer service, like the other pacifists. But kollel shouldn't get you a free pass from standing up and doing what the Jewish State needs from its citizens. If kollel boys and yeshivah students don't like that, I can accept their argument: in that case, they should move to New York, or New Jersey, or Chicago or Cleveland, where there are plenty of kollels, no requirement for military service, and probably Orthodox Jews willing to pay to keep unemployed young men learning Torah all day and nothing else.

3. Religious political parties have got to go. All of them. Right-wing, left-wing, centrist, whatever. The Knesset is religious enough in that it is the governing body of the Jewish State. No more religion than that needed.

4. Civil rights for Israeli Arabs. I have no problem with the need for security. And I understand that sometimes that might involve some tough action in the West Bank or Gaza. And I also understand that on occasion, it might prove to be that an Israeli Arab is caught up in these kinds of problems, and becomes a security risk. But none of this justifies Arab neighborhoods getting crap municipal services: no trash collection, or no street repairs, or intermittent electricity or water, etc. And none of it justifies Arabs getting discriminated against in employment or education, or getting third-class treatment in dealing with government benefit or social services offices, as too frequently happens. Discriminating against the Arabs just p***** them off, and makes them less happy to be Israeli citizen, and breeds sympathy for unfriendly causes. And besides which, the Jewish State ought to be emblematic of Jewish ethics, and treating the non-Jew living within the Jewish community like crap is really, really not Jewish values. Really.

5. Gotta crack down on pollution. The environmental situation is just out of hand. The entire Yarkon river is a toxic nightmare, among other crises. WTF, Israeli government? Whether you're totally secular, and you just know that Israel's your country, or you're not completely secular, and you believe Israel's our holy land, it's equally a shame and a disgrace not to keep such a lovely and special place pure-- or at least, non-toxic.

As for the Palestinian problem.... I think that it would have been better had Israel just annexed the West Bank outright in 1967, made everyone accept Israeli citizenship or get the hell out. But Israel didn't do that. And that ship sailed a long time ago. Regardless of what could've or should've been, we have to deal with what is. And the truth is, Israel needs peace. I think the two-state solution is going to be the only way.

I think Israel has to be willing to give up all the Jewish towns in the West Bank except for most of the Gush Etzion suburbs of Jerusalem. I think it's pretty clear that Jerusalem has never been on the table, and the nearest parts of the Gush are just way too interconnected to Jerusalem to give up. But everywhere else, whether it's smaller places like Tapuach, or larger places like Maalei Adumim...that's just the price of peace. And we land swap the equivalent area to the Gush and the Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem, and pay over reparations. And if the Palestinians don't like it, tough. We pull out, lock down the security fence, close up the door behind us, and formally acknowledge the State of Palestine, and get the US to acknowledge it also. They can do whatever they like behind there: if they build and prosper, more power to 'em. And if they turn on one another and fight until the terrorists control everything, that won't be our problem unless they're stupid enough to start a war with Israel.

Hopefully it won't come to that. But I think the Israeli government has got to show some good faith. If they want to show they're serious about Jerusalem not being on the table, and encourage a bunch of building projects there, fine. But that means they have to stop construction in the West Bank, and start pulling out the smallest settlements. You gotta give a little to get a little.

And if we're going to issue our legitimate complaints about the leadership of the PA, we should look to our own leadership as well. The problem is that the government is half right-wing zealous nutjobs, and half frayerim (suckers, idiots, pushover wusses). Guys like Bibi Netanyahu and Ehud Barak and Tzipi Livni are all hacks, with no presence, and no balls, no subtlety, and no sense of diplomacy from a position of strength. We need someone like they used to make 'em: Ben-Gurion, or Begin, or Rabin, or Sharon. Golda, even. And they seem to be nowhere to be found.

A two-state solution is necessary. Whether it will ever materialize anytime soon...that's another story.

Those are my feelings about Israeli politics.
 
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Whoitbe

Member
I stand with what the rebbe said in the state of Israel. I've been in Israel now for almost a year, been on a kibbutz, study on yeshiva, seen most the country, met plenty of Israelis and Arabs and everything else in between. I think I nigt make Aliyah out here.

Ultimately, I disagree with the state of Israel having become a state at this point. It's not a state which keeps Torah law, in fact it's mostly secular. Plus moschiach hasn't come yet. Thus I do not believe Israel necessarily should of become a Jewish state. Why not make uganda a Jewish state like hertzl suggested at one point?

However, despite my fundamental disagreement with the forming of the state of Israel, I see it as simple as this. We are here to stay. Regardless of what has happened, for right or wrong - and I do not view the land as stolen, but in my view that's irrelevant to how I hold on Israel - we should not give up a single square inch of land.

*The Rebbe said giving up land will lead to more bloodshed of Jews and Palestinians than if we keep the land. Egypt and Jordan are NOT our allies. We are at a very cold peace with then and if you think the Jordanians(Which are 85% Palestinians) hold in the least bt a favorable view of Israel and Jews, you're mistaken. Same for Egyptians.

*I've been here long enough to say, flat out the vast majority of Arabs HATE the state of Israel and the Jews a long with it. Interestingly enough, the Israeli-Arabs express in a majority a favorable on the state of Israel. Why? Because they have it way better off in Israel than they do in the west bank, gaza or any other Arab country. Arabs don't like Palestinians. They're second class citizens in Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Syria and every country which they go into in the middle east. The Arab countries flat out just don't want Israel to be a country so they side with the palestinians because it suits their own interest. Go to Egypt or Jordan and find me a Palestinian who is well off compared to the rest of the host population. You'll be hardpressed to find one.

Maybe 2/3 or Palestinians are pro-two state solution, the remainder are single state Palestinian solution and are not willing to recognize Israel as a state. But, that 2/3 of the Palestinian population(this is only in west bank/gaza according to the study I read) see this as a precursor to a one state solution. Furthermore, the splitting up of the west bank would leave about 325,000 Jews displaced. That would be catastrophic in a country with a Jewish population of something like 5.5 million? The splitting of the west bank and gaza into their own countries wouldn't bring any peace, it'd only bring war. Bottom line is, the Palestinians see all of Israel as stolen. They're not willing to give that up. If you think a two state solution will make then forget that, you're wrong. We are their enemies and vice versa. This is not something a 2 state solution can solve. Spend a good ammount of time out here and you'll see what I mean.*
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Pro Zionist or Anti Zionist? Depends what someone sees as Zionism.

Zionism is the need for a jewish homeland. Everything else is just politics.
I think all people should have a country to call their home. So obviously iam a Zionist. Doesnt mean that iam a fan of Likud or the Labor Party.


And well i support everything Levite wrote. Especially the part about the haredi youth. Iam not so sure if they realise that back in the days we were an agricultural society. Even if you lived in a shtetl you had to work and obviously before and after the time of the kingdom/s it was also like that.


I really dont get it.



And the two state solution is the only solution that is possible.
 

Whoitbe

Member
A two state solution is a terrible idea. Palestinians still think the land is stolen and aren't going to compromise. They'll only compromise temporarily to get their own state so they can *in time over throw Israel. Legitimately, surrender and compromised are viewed as weakness in resistance movements. If Israel gives them an inch they'll try to take a mile.
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
... Why not make uganda a Jewish state like hertzl suggested at one point?...

I always wonder about that... well, not Uganda but if we had joined our fellow Jews in Ethiopia? Surely, land would have been cheap enough, we could have made quite a colony there. Not that we would abandon Eretz Israel, we would still have the Jewish Quarter and could still immigrate there, without making it a state. I just mean the secular state would be in Ethiopia. Would we have had such a bloody conflict with the local people? I think not, Jews have a long standing relationship to the region, after all. Imagine how different history would be, both in the middle-east and in the horn of Africa...

Silly daydream, I know...
 

Alceste

Vagabond
whoops - I am not a fellow jewish brother or sister. Sorry - didn't see this was in the DIR when I voted.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
I always wonder about that... well, not Uganda but if we had joined our fellow Jews in Ethiopia? Surely, land would have been cheap enough, we could have made quite a colony there. Not that we would abandon Eretz Israel, we would still have the Jewish Quarter and could still immigrate there, without making it a state. I just mean the secular state would be in Ethiopia. Would we have had such a bloody conflict with the local people? I think not, Jews have a long standing relationship to the region, after all. Imagine how different history would be, both in the middle-east and in the horn of Africa...

Silly daydream, I know...

I don't think it would've worked, brah. There would've been nothing linking us to the place. Part of what made Zionism really take off was the idea that we were reclaiming our own land. True, most of those Zionists were secular socialists, who thought we'd be reclaiming our ancient land with the new Jew of the new era, but even so.... It was the link that made the idea attractive. Zionism needed Israel. Besides, the other early Zionists had huge s*** fits when they heard Herzl was willing to consider Uganda: the movement never would've stood for it.

Anyhow, if we'd ended up in Uganda or Ethiopia or wherever, today we'd just be in the same s*** pot of troubles in the UN, with the Africans and the colonial-guilt-ridden Europeans saying that we Jews had up and colonized and stolen a bunch of land not belonging to us; originally purchased or unpurchased never seems to make much difference these days, anyway.

They're gonna hang us out to dry one way or the other. We might as well get toasted for living in the land we actually have some claim to inherit, you know?
 
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