Poll: Basic Theology

[Exaltist Ethan]

Theism/Atheism - Belief in God axis.
Gnosticism/Agnosticism - Knowledge of God axis.
Pistevism/Apistevism - Faith in God axis.

I'm really having fun making these polls in Interfaith and poking at the brains here in RF. Similar to my theology poll, this poll doesn't name specific theological positions like that did, but asks the users here what basic theology they have. Now, most people understand the theist/atheist divide and the gnostic/agnostic divide, but I'm going to add a third-axis to this, that I call "pistevist"/"apistevist". On this axis we explore whether you believe that faith itself should be a governing factor of your belief in God.

All beliefs come from either evidence of those beliefs or faith that those beliefs are correct. Therefore, it is a logical contradiction to hold either theist/atheist points of view and also be agnostic and apistevist at the same time. So I decided not to include the concepts of "theist/agnostic/apistevist" or "atheist/agnostic/apistevist" in this poll. It is not a contradiction to be both gnostic and pistevist however, as concepts like assumptions and extrapolations use both evidence and faith to come to a conclusion. Upon later review I decided to give "agnostic/apistevist" its own choice for those who are apathetic towards God and are neither theist nor atheist.

As far as I go, although I do not partake in religious rituals, I am extremely religious with my belief in God. I am a theist, gnostic and pistevist. I believe I both know God as reality and have faith that this reality will continue to exist for an indefinite period. Although in my Brain Droppings thread I mentioned how I would like to distance myself from transhumanism and become more apistevist, I don't think I ever really do this, especially with the advancements we have made with artificial intelligence lately.

I plan on making this thread one-choice only but votes can change and votes will also be public.

TL;DR - Let us know how you answered this question and why you answered it that way.

 

[Orbit]

Apatheist, because at this point I truly don't care if there are gods.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Apatheist, because at this point I truly don't care if there are gods.

I am so glad I decided to include it. Atheists will often say, "we're all born atheists" but in reality I believe we are all born apatheist. Some people just never change that position, yourself included.

 

[CharmingOwl]

I think when believing in a deity you should interact with some way and see knowledge of them influencing your life, right? Why have faith in gods without personal knowledge? Knowledge without faith is basically knowing about gods that you read about.

 

[VoidCat]

I answered the first one but i actually believe in many gods only two that I worship and one I no longer worship I believe in through personal experience that is knowledge of them(which is still by faith as well as all those experiences can be explained by mundane causes). The others I believe in are more by faith alone.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

As an agnostic, I don't have a position on the question of whether or not any god or gods exist. It is a question beyond human 'knowing.'

I don't believe [Get it? Huh? Huh?] that the other category has any relevance to me...

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

As an agnostic, I don't have a position on the question of whether or not any god or gods exist. It is a question beyond human 'knowing.'

I don't believe [Get it? Huh? Huh?] that the other category has any relevance to me...

I could have made an "other" option or perhaps a version of agnosticism that doesn't include apistevism or apatheism. Not all agnostics are apistevists (like agnostic theists) and not all agnostics are apathetic towards the idea of God either. Some (true) agnostics are actually deeply interested in the topic of religion but would rather remain neutral to the idea of God. The problem is, I don't know what you'd even call that. I wanted this poll to mainly reflect the three epistemological positions of God instead of being a list of theisms like I did with the theism thread I did nearly a year ago. As the thread creator I have the ability to amend the results to add more options, and I only used seven out of the ten available options.

So in theory I could create up to three more options. If you want a result that reflects your view of God better, please explain to me how I would frame your view of God in a way that is structured like the other options. I made seven options so far thinking that it would include everybody but obviously it hasn't and that by itself bothers me. Anyone should have the ability to answer this question honestly. I just assumed that if you have no knowledge or faith in God, that person would naturally be apathetic to the question altogether, but of course, people are going to find ways to find gaps in my ways to understand God.

Edit: I asked ChatGPT this question and I literally broke its flawless logic...

Me: "What do you call an agnostic who is otherwise still interested in religion, but doesn't take a stance towards theism or atheism?"

ChatGPT: "An agnostic who is interested in religion but does not take a stance towards theism or atheism is often referred to as an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist, depending on their specific beliefs.

An agnostic theist is someone who believes in the existence of a higher power or deity but acknowledges that the nature or existence of that higher power cannot be known or proven. They may hold religious beliefs and participate in religious practices while maintaining a degree of skepticism or uncertainty.

On the other hand, an agnostic atheist is someone who does not believe in the existence of a higher power or deity but also acknowledges that the existence or non-existence of such a being cannot be definitively proven. They may be interested in religion from a cultural, philosophical, or intellectual perspective but do not subscribe to religious beliefs or practices.

It's important to note that these terms are not mutually exclusive and can be used to describe different aspects of an individual's beliefs. The specific label used may vary depending on the individual's personal understanding and interpretation of their beliefs."

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I could have made an "other" option or perhaps a version of agnosticism that doesn't include apistevism or apatheism. Not all agnostics are apistevists (like agnostic theists) and not all agnostics are apathetic towards the idea of God either. Some (true) agnostics are actually deeply interested in the topic of religion but would rather remain neutral to the idea of God. The problem is, I don't know what you'd even call that. I wanted this poll to mainly reflect the three epistemological positions of God instead of being a list of theisms like I did with the theism thread I did nearly a year ago. As the thread creator I have the ability to amend the results to add more options, and I only used seven out of the ten available options.

So in theory I could create up to three more options. If you want a result that reflects your view of God better, please explain to me how I would frame your view of God in a way that is structured like the other options. I made seven options so far thinking that it would include everybody but obviously it hasn't and that by itself bothers me. Anyone should have the ability to answer this question honestly. I just assumed that if you have no knowledge or faith in God, that person would naturally be apathetic to the question altogether, but of course, people are going to find ways to find gaps in my ways to understand God.

Edit: I asked ChatGPT this question and I literally broke its flawless logic...

Me: "What do you call an agnostic who is otherwise still interested in religion, but doesn't take a stance towards theism or atheism?"

ChatGPT: "An agnostic who is interested in religion but does not take a stance towards theism or atheism is often referred to as an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist, depending on their specific beliefs.

An agnostic theist is someone who believes in the existence of a higher power or deity but acknowledges that the nature or existence of that higher power cannot be known or proven. They may hold religious beliefs and participate in religious practices while maintaining a degree of skepticism or uncertainty.

On the other hand, an agnostic atheist is someone who does not believe in the existence of a higher power or deity but also acknowledges that the existence or non-existence of such a being cannot be definitively proven. They may be interested in religion from a cultural, philosophical, or intellectual perspective but do not subscribe to religious beliefs or practices.

It's important to note that these terms are not mutually exclusive and can be used to describe different aspects of an individual's beliefs. The specific label used may vary depending on the individual's personal understanding and interpretation of their beliefs."

Sorry to have sent you on a loop. Not at all my intention. Other than an 'other' category, I don't know what to suggest.

I am an agnostic, meaning I don't have a belief regarding the existence or nonexistence of a god or gods. It may be possible that there could be evidence, but seriously, I don't see how any evidence could be convincing either direction. Deity is not something that I think I or any human...or maybe any sentient being...can really comprehend. It's a placeholder category. I pragmatically await sufficient evidence to demonstrate that deity exists.

I do, however, find the talk of god or gods, and religion--and especially peoples' EXPERIENCES to be interesting. Not so much their beliefs about what they experienced, but their experiences. Hence why I'm on RF, and responding to your thread...

as for pistevist/apistevist...I've never even heard this term until your OP, and I'm still not sure what exactly it's supposed to mean...definitions I see in a google search seems to mean whether a person uses or does not use faith in order to know things. Given that humans are limited beings with limited sensory abilities and limited computational abilities, I can't imagine how anyone can not use faith in order to know things. I have faith the the universe operates according to some reasonably understandable principles, which by (by faith in our mental faculties) careful observation and testing we might be able to articulate more or less. Pragmatically, those are assumptions of faith about our ability to know...

 

[syo]

What is faith?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I answered the first one.

I have had and continue to have experiences in life that point in the direction of an intervening God. At the same time these could be coincidences, so I acknowledge it's faith based. But I'd say I'm more gnostic than agnostic.

 

[Heyo]

Theism/Atheism - Belief in God axis.
Gnosticism/Agnosticism - Knowledge of God axis.
Pistevism/Apistevism - Faith in God axis.

I'm really having fun making these polls in Interfaith and poking at the brains here in RF. Similar to my theology poll, this poll doesn't name specific theological positions like that did, but asks the users here what basic theology they have. Now, most people understand the theist/atheist divide and the gnostic/agnostic divide, but I'm going to add a third-axis to this, that I call "pistevist"/"apistevist". On this axis we explore whether you believe that faith itself should be a governing factor of your belief in God.

All beliefs come from either evidence of those beliefs or faith that those beliefs are correct. Therefore, it is a logical contradiction to hold either theist/atheist points of view and also be agnostic and apistevist at the same time. So I decided not to include the concepts of "theist/agnostic/apistevist" or "atheist/agnostic/apistevist" in this poll. It is not a contradiction to be both gnostic and pistevist however, as concepts like assumptions and extrapolations use both evidence and faith to come to a conclusion. Upon later review I decided to give "agnostic/apistevist" its own choice for those who are apathetic towards God and are neither theist nor atheist.

As far as I go, although I do not partake in religious rituals, I am extremely religious with my belief in God. I am a theist, gnostic and pistevist. I believe I both know God as reality and have faith that this reality will continue to exist for an indefinite period. Although in my Brain Droppings thread I mentioned how I would like to distance myself from transhumanism and become more apistevist, I don't think I ever really do this, especially with the advancements we have made with artificial intelligence lately.

I plan on making this thread one-choice only but votes can change and votes will also be public.

TL;DR - Let us know how you answered this question and why you answered it that way.

I'm a philosophical Agnostic. I see evidence that nobody even knows what a god is.
I'm also, by definition, an atheist (colloquial) because I don't believe in any gods. (How could I, I don't know what that is.)
For the same reason I'm also an apistevist.

I'm interested in the psychology of gods, so I'm not apatheistic.

 

[blü 2]

Theism/Atheism - Belief in God axis.
Gnosticism/Agnosticism - Knowledge of God axis.
Pistevism/Apistevism - Faith in God axis.

I'm really having fun making these polls in Interfaith and poking at the brains here in RF. Similar to my theology poll, this poll doesn't name specific theological positions like that did, but asks the users here what basic theology they have. Now, most people understand the theist/atheist divide and the gnostic/agnostic divide, but I'm going to add a third-axis to this, that I call "pistevist"/"apistevist". On this axis we explore whether you believe that faith itself should be a governing factor of your belief in God.

All beliefs come from either evidence of those beliefs or faith that those beliefs are correct. Therefore, it is a logical contradiction to hold either theist/atheist points of view and also be agnostic and apistevist at the same time. So I decided not to include the concepts of "theist/agnostic/apistevist" or "atheist/agnostic/apistevist" in this poll. It is not a contradiction to be both gnostic and pistevist however, as concepts like assumptions and extrapolations use both evidence and faith to come to a conclusion. Upon later review I decided to give "agnostic/apistevist" its own choice for those who are apathetic towards God and are neither theist nor atheist.

As far as I go, although I do not partake in religious rituals, I am extremely religious with my belief in God. I am a theist, gnostic and pistevist. I believe I both know God as reality and have faith that this reality will continue to exist for an indefinite period. Although in my Brain Droppings thread I mentioned how I would like to distance myself from transhumanism and become more apistevist, I don't think I ever really do this, especially with the advancements we have made with artificial intelligence lately.

I plan on making this thread one-choice only but votes can change and votes will also be public.

TL;DR - Let us know how you answered this question and why you answered it that way.

As an igtheist, I answer the OP's question, None of the above.

Imaginary gods are just part of the subset 'supernatural beings' in the set 'imaginary beings'.

But there's no coherent definition of a real god, one with objective existence, such that if we found a real suspect, we could determine whether it was God, or a god, or not.

Nor is there any coherent definition of 'godness', the real quality a real god would have and a real superscientist who could create universes, travel in time, raise the dead &c &c, would lack.

 

[Truthseeker]

Theism/Atheism - Belief in God axis.
Gnosticism/Agnosticism - Knowledge of God axis.
Pistevism/Apistevism - Faith in God axis.

I'm really having fun making these polls in Interfaith and poking at the brains here in RF. Similar to my theology poll, this poll doesn't name specific theological positions like that did, but asks the users here what basic theology they have. Now, most people understand the theist/atheist divide and the gnostic/agnostic divide, but I'm going to add a third-axis to this, that I call "pistevist"/"apistevist". On this axis we explore whether you believe that faith itself should be a governing factor of your belief in God.

All beliefs come from either evidence of those beliefs or faith that those beliefs are correct. Therefore, it is a logical contradiction to hold either theist/atheist points of view and also be agnostic and apistevist at the same time. So I decided not to include the concepts of "theist/agnostic/apistevist" or "atheist/agnostic/apistevist" in this poll. It is not a contradiction to be both gnostic and pistevist however, as concepts like assumptions and extrapolations use both evidence and faith to come to a conclusion. Upon later review I decided to give "agnostic/apistevist" its own choice for those who are apathetic towards God and are neither theist nor atheist.

As far as I go, although I do not partake in religious rituals, I am extremely religious with my belief in God. I am a theist, gnostic and pistevist. I believe I both know God as reality and have faith that this reality will continue to exist for an indefinite period. Although in my Brain Droppings thread I mentioned how I would like to distance myself from transhumanism and become more apistevist, I don't think I ever really do this, especially with the advancements we have made with artificial intelligence lately.

I plan on making this thread one-choice only but votes can change and votes will also be public.

TL;DR - Let us know how you answered this question and why you answered it that way.

I am again awed by your breadth of knowledge. I looked up "pistevist" online and I couldn't get the word defined for me, but I saw entries for it, and "apistovist" was more prevalent when I looked for "pistevist". I get a sense of what these two words mean by what I see after the colon.

Anyway, the first option is the one for me "Believes in God based on both Knowledge and faith in God.". In my case the knowledge is the evidence I found for Baha'u'llah being a Prophet of God. If Baha'u'llah is a Prophet of God, it stands to reason that God must exist for there being a Prophet of God. There are also spiritual experiences involved.

 

[Truthseeker]

I believe I both know God as reality and have faith that this reality will continue to exist for an indefinite period.

That doesn't quite fit what I thought the option meant, but if that's what you think they mean, that's okay.

 

[Truthseeker]

I am so glad I decided to include it. Atheists will often say, "we're all born atheists" but in reality I believe we are all born apatheist. Some people just never change that position, yourself included.

I agree with that. It'd common sense.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I did not vote. Theist Hindus believe in Gods/Goddesses because they think they have good arguments for that.
Of course, other Hindus may differ on that. Faith alone does not work in Hinduism.
Your options gave more importance to faith, which is understandable for Abrahamic religions.

 

[Truthseeker]

I have had and continue to have experiences in life that point in the direction of an intervening God.

I hadn't thought of that as evidence for God in my answer, but I've had that kind of evidence for God, and like you said in the rest of your statement they could be coincidences.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

I am again awed by your breadth of knowledge. I looked up "pistevist" online and I couldn't get the word defined for me, but I saw entries for it, and "apistovist" was more prevalent when I looked for "pistevist". I get a sense of what these two words mean by what I see after the colon.

Pistevism isn't even a word. Apistevist is someone who rejects faith. So I broke down its etymology and used apistevism as a means to describe a belief system that rejects faith. And since a in the beginning of a word typically denotes "without", like "a-gnostic" being without knowledge of God or "a-theist" being a dis-belief of God, I separated a and pistevism to use the word "pistevism" to mean "someone who has faith in God." Since it is easier to type "pistevism" than it is to say, "someone who has faith in God", I literally just used the word's etymology to invent new words, like my own belief in Exaltism. I might appear knowledgeable to you because of this but frankly I'm really not, I just like using words most people don't use.

Anyway, the first option is the one for me "Believes in God based on both Knowledge and faith in God.". In my case the knowledge is the evidence I found for Baha'u'llah being a Prophet of God. If Baha'u'llah is a Prophet of God, it stands to reason that God must exist for there being a Prophet of God. There are also spiritual experiences involved.

I think most monotheists would say their belief in God comes from both some amount of knowledge and faith. Since nobody knows what it currently outside the Universe trying to prove that God's existence is currently impossible, but rather than being deist, most monotheists would say that God has in some way proven itself to them with subjective experiences unique to them. Atheists tend to reject any of these experiences and hold a disbelief in God.

Honestly, I am surprised that so many of you said you were theists. There are very prominent atheists on this forum and I thought they would have answered the poll. I get the fact that Interfaith tends to attract more theists than atheists however. So far we have nine theists, two apatheists and a few other people who identify as outliers of the poll.

I did not vote. Theist Hindus believe in Gods/Goddesses because they think they have good arguments for that.
Of course, other Hindus may differ on that. Faith alone does not work in Hinduism.
Your options gave more importance to faith, which is understandable for Abrahamic religions.

I would contend that you if you believe in God because of "good arguments" you must have some "knowledge" of God. Since all beliefs can be broken into what is known and what is faith. I think if there are "good arguments" that support your existence of God, you must be both theist and gnostic, in varying degrees. But based on what you said I would also argue that you don't like to use faith as a rationale to believe in God. In any case I would say that you're theist rather than atheist.

 

[Truthseeker]

Pistevism isn't even a word. Apistevist is someone who rejects faith. So I broke down its etymology and used apistevism as a means to describe a belief system that rejects faith. And since a in the beginning of a word typically denotes "without", like "a-gnostic" being without knowledge of God or "a-theist" being a dis-belief of God, I separated a and pistevism to use the word "pistevism" to mean "someone who has faith in God." Since it is easier to type "pistevism" than it is to say, "someone who has faith in God", I literally just used the word's etymology to invent new words, like my own belief in Exaltism. I might appear knowledgeable to you because of this but frankly I'm really not, I just like using words most people don't use.

I never heard of the word Apistevist, either.

I think most monotheists would say their belief in God comes from both some amount of knowledge and faith. Since nobody knows what it currently outside the Universe trying to prove that God's existence is currently impossible, but rather than being deist, most monotheists would say that God has in some way proven itself to them with subjective experiences unique to them. Atheists tend to reject any of these experiences and hold a disbelief in God.

It's true that that those who are skeptical have doubts about their subjective experiences concerning God or a religion. Atheists tend to believe n science and hard facts.

Over 50% chose the option I chose.

I would contend that you if you believe in God because of "good arguments" you must have some "knowledge" of God. Since all beliefs can be broken into what is known and what is faith. I think if there are "good arguments" that support your existence of God, you must be both theist and gnostic, in varying degrees. But based on what you said I would also argue that you don't like to use faith as a rationale to believe in God. In any case I would say that you're theist rather than atheist.

This your reply to Aupmanyav, but if I may comment, I don't think he is speaking about his own belief, but about theist Hindus, which is something he is definitely not, from my experience with him. "they think they have good arguments for that".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Talk of finding GOD redundant presumes some coherent definition of GOD and some relevant definition of redundancy, a combination that strikes me as more shallow than apathetic.