Poll: Sola Scriptura - Biblical or Unbiblical?

[Kolibri]

The tares didn't replace the wheat or kill it off, though. And the distinction between the wheat and tares was known long before the harvest. You make it seem as if there was only a tiny handful of wheat among a sea of tares, which is clearly not the case.

Lolium temulentum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Darnel, a type of "false wheat", is nearly indistinguishable from the wheat until the ear appears.
You have to look really close to see which one has less slender spikes to determine the wheat.
That makes it very risky to weed the field too early.
By the time the ear shows up, the harvest is very close.

 

[Shiranui117]

Lolium temulentum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Darnel, a type of "false wheat", is nearly indistinguishable from the wheat until the ear appears.
You have to look really close to see which one has less slender spikes to determine the wheat.
That makes it very risky to weed the field too early.
By the time the ear shows up, the harvest is very close.

And yet it didn't take 2,000 years for the Apostles to notice heretics and anti-Christs, and for these people to either leave the Church or get kicked out of it. Your entire premise relies on every single Christian either apostasizing or being too incompetent to either notice heresy or combat it. And yet somehow this band of heretics and ignoramuses were able to compile the Bible and correctly transmit it through time to the point where a random group of Americans belonging to an entirely different period and culture could properly interpret it, when no one prior to them had ever been able to correctly interpret the Bible...

 

[Kolibri]

And yet it didn't take 2,000 years for the Apostles to notice heretics and anti-Christs, and for these people to either leave the Church or get kicked out of it. Your entire premise relies on every single Christian either apostasizing or being too incompetent to either notice heresy or combat it. And yet somehow this band of heretics and ignoramuses were able to compile the Bible and correctly transmit it through time to the point where a random group of Americans belonging to an entirely different period and culture could properly interpret it, when no one prior to them had ever been able to correctly interpret the Bible...

What did Paul mean here then?

"And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that [the man of lawlessness] will be revealed in his own due time. True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way." - 2 Thess 2:6,7

Yes there were Judizers and those teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, but these things were being restrained. The restraining force was of the apostles. Their presence, with their powerful gifts bestowed by holy spirit, prevented apostasy from then becoming an epidemic. (Acts 2:1-4; 1 Corinthians 12:28) But when the apostles had died, by about the end of the first century, the restraining brakes were removed.

At the end of the century John wrote at Jesus' dictation that there were already sects manifested in the congregations. The sect of Nicolaus, the presence of false prophets like Balaam, and a Jezebel-like influence that called 'herself' a prophetess.—Re 2:6, 14, 15, 20.

Once John died, the restraint was gone. False Prophets could take over the administrative nature of the congregations and the real confusion could begin.

 

[Shiranui117]

What did Paul mean here then?

"And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that [the man of lawlessness] will be revealed in his own due time. True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way." - 2 Thess 2:6,7

This is talking about the coming of Jesus. Beginning from the previous chapter to give full context:

We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And moving onto the second chapter:

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So the man of lawlessness is not one who would lead Christians astray (for these Christians abide in the truth with faith and have not been shaken even during times of persecution), but rather, the man of lawlessness is the same as the abomination of desolation mentioned in the Book of Daniel and of Revelation--paganism, hedonism and human pride that leads the nations astray, attempting to usurp God. This was a prediction of the Roman defilement of the Jewish temple, and a warning against the Roman Empire and all worldly kingdoms which set themselves in opposition to God, just as Jesus Himself warned in Matthew 24:15. It was in no way a corruption of the Church, against which the gates of Hades cannot prevail, as Jesus said in Matthew 16.

It was not the Apostles who were restraining the man of lawlessness. Indeed, it is not many people or many things that restrain the man of lawlessness, but one thing or one person. So we know that it was not the Apostles who restrained.

Yes there were Judizers and those teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, but these things were being restrained. The restraining force was of the apostles. Their presence, with their powerful gifts bestowed by holy spirit, prevented apostasy from then becoming an epidemic. (Acts 2:1-4; 1 Corinthians 12:28) But when the apostles had died, by about the end of the first century, the restraining brakes were removed.

It wasn't heresy that was being restrained, but the ragings of the nations, and self-deifying corruptive pride against God.

To put 1 Corinthians 12:28 in its context...

But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, 25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

Do you believe that no one aside from the Apostles had the gift of the Holy Spirit? Did no other Christian receive instruction in all truth from Him, as Jesus promised in John 16:13? Did only the Apostles receive the graces and gifts of the Holy Spirit to defend the true Faith and to lead and guide the Church? Did no other Christian love the Truth or keep the Faith? Did the Apostles appoint apostates or heretics devoid of the grace of the Spirit to administer the Church? Of course this is not so.

At the end of the century John wrote at Jesus' dictation that there were already sects manifested in the congregations. The sect of Nicolaus, the presence of false prophets like Balaam, and a Jezebel-like influence that called 'herself' a prophetess.—Re 2:6, 14, 15, 20.

There were sects, but they didn't take over the Church. The Apostles and those who they appointed made sure of that, and indeed, we see that the Nicolaitans died out rather quickly.

Once John died, the restraint was gone. False Prophets could take over the administrative nature of the congregations and the real confusion could begin.

So what, you think the Apostles didn't train anyone in the Faith? They didn't have a single thing set in place for after they died? This is, of course, not the case--the Apostles were capable of basic foresight, and had been training and appointing hand-selected successors as bishops to administer the spiritual affairs of the Church.

 

[atpollard]

Like Jesus and Paul, they preached Christ from the Old Testament ... which did exist and was 'Scriptura'.

Then again, the Apostles probably just muddled through trusting that what Jesus actually said was 'Scripura' (what with Jesus being the word and all).

 

[Kolibri]

This is talking about the coming of Jesus. Beginning from the previous chapter to give full context:

We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And moving onto the second chapter:

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So the man of lawlessness is not one who would lead Christians astray (for these Christians abide in the truth with faith and have not been shaken even during times of persecution), but rather, the man of lawlessness is the same as the abomination of desolation mentioned in the Book of Daniel and of Revelation--paganism, hedonism and human pride that leads the nations astray, attempting to usurp God. This was a prediction of the Roman defilement of the Jewish temple, and a warning against the Roman Empire and all worldly kingdoms which set themselves in opposition to God, just as Jesus Himself warned in Matthew 24:15. It was in no way a corruption of the Church, against which the gates of Hades cannot prevail, as Jesus said in Matthew 16.

It was not the Apostles who were restraining the man of lawlessness. Indeed, it is not many people or many things that restrain the man of lawlessness, but one thing or one person. So we know that it was not the Apostles who restrained.

It wasn't heresy that was being restrained, but the ragings of the nations, and self-deifying corruptive pride against God.

To put 1 Corinthians 12:28 in its context...

But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, 25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

Do you believe that no one aside from the Apostles had the gift of the Holy Spirit? Did no other Christian receive instruction in all truth from Him, as Jesus promised in John 16:13? Did only the Apostles receive the graces and gifts of the Holy Spirit to defend the true Faith and to lead and guide the Church? Did no other Christian love the Truth or keep the Faith? Did the Apostles appoint apostates or heretics devoid of the grace of the Spirit to administer the Church? Of course this is not so.

There were sects, but they didn't take over the Church. The Apostles and those who they appointed made sure of that, and indeed, we see that the Nicolaitans died out rather quickly.

So what, you think the Apostles didn't train anyone in the Faith? They didn't have a single thing set in place for after they died? This is, of course, not the case--the Apostles were capable of basic foresight, and had been training and appointing hand-selected successors as bishops to administer the spiritual affairs of the Church.

What were the brothers told? were they told to watch out for something in the distant future. Was it just pride of the nations? Perhaps if we add a few other verses along this same theme.

"I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness from among you yourselves (the Ephesus overseers) men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away disciples after themselves." - Acts 20:29,30

"However, the inspired word (Lit., "the spirit.") clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements (Lit., "misleading spirits.") and teachings of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, whose conscience is seared as with a branding iron. They forbid marriage and command people to abstain from foods that God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth." - 1 Timothy 4:1-3

Hmm, people with seeming authority to forbid and command.

"For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome (or "healthful, beneficial.") teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. (or "to tell them what they want to hear.") They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories. You (Timothy), though, keep your senses in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelizer, (or "keep preaching the good news.") fully accomplish your ministry." - 2 Timothy 4:3-5

Why was Timothy warned to keep his sense if this was not due to happen within his natural lifetime? It did not say he would succeed in preventing this apostasy, but he could keep his sense and endure the hardship to come.

"Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; (or "they did not belong to us.") for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort." - 1 John 2:18,19

Already the last hour. This was around 98 C.E., 18 years after the last days of the Jewish system of things surrounding the temple worship in Jerusalem had ended. So it was not the last hour of that system. And Christ did not arrive anytime shortly after that. This then was the last hour before the antichrists come to such an extent that the wheat and the weed can no longer easily be distinguished.

Just 2 years earlier, Jesus had John write to 7 congregations in Asia Minor, of those 7, only 5 got introductory commendation. And only 2 got away without a problem clearly identified; so, 5 out of the 7 had serious problems and were warned that whole congregations could be abandoned by Jesus.

So, it is not at all out of the question that apostate church(es) would rise up and hide spiritual truths until the time of harvest arrives.

 

[kerndog]

One of the gifts of the spirit that still existed in the infancy of the Christian congregations was "discernment of inspired expressions". (1 Cor 12:10) But when the Bible canon was complete, these special gifts of the spirit were done away with.

"Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, (that is, miraculous speaking of other languages.) they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with." - 1 Cor 13:8-10

In support of kolibri !

 

[Deidre]

In order to be a devout Christian, one doesn't need to adhere to Sola Scriptura.

 

[kerndog]

Hi all, got here late and kind of scanned through all the post, kolibri has done well. The only thing i would add to kolibris replies is at Mat 13:25 in Jesus parable of the weat and the weeds, he stated "while men were sleeping" he was obviously talking about a time after the apostles had died. Jesus used this expresion when talking about death before , when talking to his disciples while on his way to resurect lazerus at John 11:11-14 ! So, as kolbri said when quoting Acts 20: 29,30 - 1John 2:18 - 2Thess 2:6,7 the apostles were the only thing standing in the way of the apostasy taking ALMOST complete control of the wheat. After that, the rest is a matter of historical fact, a study of the apostate church that formed unscriptural doctrines the next 300 or so years after the death of the last apostles , would be a big step in seeing how this developed, there are a number of scholarly books on the matter, one i recomend highly, is " Jesus wars" by Prof. Phillip jenkins , of Baylor University in texas, very enlightening of just how corrupt these "bishops were ! Kolibri, if i have repeated anything you have already brought out, please excuse me

 

[McBell]

Still waiting for the statement from scripture that says scripture only.

 

[Nada]

Hi all, got here late and kind of scanned through all the post, kolibri has done well. The only thing i would add to kolibris replies is at Mat 13:25 in Jesus parable of the weat and the weeds, he stated "while men were sleeping" he was obviously talking about a time after the apostles had died. Jesus used this expresion when talking about death before , when talking to his disciples while on his way to resurect lazerus at John 11:11-14 ! So, as kolbri said when quoting Acts 20: 29,30 - 1John 2:18 - 2Thess 2:6,7 the apostles were the only thing standing in the way of the apostasy taking ALMOST complete control of the wheat. After that, the rest is a matter of historical fact, a study of the apostate church that formed unscriptural doctrines the next 300 or so years after the death of the last apostles , would be a big step in seeing how this developed, there are a number of scholarly books on the matter, one i recomend highly, is " Jesus wars" by Prof. Phillip jenkins , of Baylor University in texas, very enlightening of just how corrupt these "bishops were ! Kolibri, if i have repeated anything you have already brought out, please excuse me

Book sounds interesting.I will go to the book store and pick up a copy.

 

[Kolibri]

Hi all, got here late and kind of scanned through all the post, kolibri has done well. The only thing i would add to kolibris replies is at Mat 13:25 in Jesus parable of the weat and the weeds, he stated "while men were sleeping" he was obviously talking about a time after the apostles had died. Jesus used this expresion when talking about death before , when talking to his disciples while on his way to resurect lazerus at John 11:11-14 ! So, as kolbri said when quoting Acts 20: 29,30 - 1John 2:18 - 2Thess 2:6,7 the apostles were the only thing standing in the way of the apostasy taking ALMOST complete control of the wheat. After that, the rest is a matter of historical fact, a study of the apostate church that formed unscriptural doctrines the next 300 or so years after the death of the last apostles , would be a big step in seeing how this developed, there are a number of scholarly books on the matter, one i recomend highly, is " Jesus wars" by Prof. Phillip jenkins , of Baylor University in texas, very enlightening of just how corrupt these "bishops were ! Kolibri, if i have repeated anything you have already brought out, please excuse me

I had not thought about the "while men were sleeping" aspect. It does make sense though.

 

[Blackmarch]

Sola Scriptura is the doctrine that scripture is the only authority for a Christian, or atleast the highest authority.

I would love to see why you do/don't believe sola scriptura is biblical/unbiblical.

Thanks.

no beacause then that puts the messenger as God, rather than the messenger.