• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Poll: The best argument against God, capital G.

What is the best argument against God?


  • Total voters
    60

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
the people of Ugarit a little further up the Syrian coast used a cuneiform alphabet (including some indication of vowels) to write their local language

THEIR local language which was DIFFERENT.

Yes they are dialects, Canaanite script is much mush older a1700 BCE as cited. The earliest pre-Hebrew is actually considered Phoenician. Hebrew script is much younger and obviously derived from Phoenician and Ugarit/Canaanite.

No, it's labeled Phoencian, but that doesn't mean Hebrew script came from Phoencians. It's just a label for alphabet used by many of the canaanite languages.

Your selective citation to justify your agenda is spaghetti om the wall is not considering the latest and all sources. Previously you even denied that Ugari/Canaanite and Phoenician script wer related script based on a supericial comparison without nay knowledge of the languagss .

It's funny ( sad ) that your copy-paste technique is reflected here too. I show that you're throwng spaghetti at the wall, you copy-paste that comment back at me, even though it's irrelevant. And I do have knowledge of Hebrew. I showed that you didn't, and here you are copy-pasting those same words back at me.

The truth is, Ugarit and Hebrew ARE very different alphabets. And they ARE different dialects which came from a large region. And Ugarit IS a subset of Canaanite, and the Hebrew IS a different subset of Canaanite. You, like many critics, reduce precision and accuracy in order to make a criticism. Once the precision and accuracy is returned, the criticism becomes invalid.

And none of this has anything to do with Hebrew myths. Still nothing significant about the topic has been brought.

Yes I have, including Ugarit/Canaanite script dating to 1700 BCE,or before and yes they have shared mythology including names of Gods. Shared mythology goes back to the Sumerians.

No.... you have not brought a single example of a shared myth. None. You said there was little doubt that The Ugarite Dan il was the inspiration for the biblical Daniel, but there is nothing, zero, zip, in common between them. NOTHING. And you have not responded to that fact... because IT'S TRUE. You make the claims, again and again, and when they are examined they turn out to be false.

The names of the GODS are not the same at all. They're God is named EL or IL. ELIL is an idol in the Hebrew bible. But you don't know this, and you refuse to learn.

Our God is named YHWH. Do you know what that means? It CANNOT be communicated in two letters. The Ugarite God is name YW. That's it. Two letters. Unless you actually have some knowledge about what YW means in Ugarit, some kind of story that details who this YW is, then all you have is wishful thinking and faith.

Sumerians.

"A Brief History of the Alphabet​

Although the earliest writing systems—those of Mesopotamia, Egypt, and possibly India—date back to the fourth millennium BCE, they were non-alphabetic and in some instances included more than a thousand signs. It was not until around 1800 BCE, according to most scholars, that the first alphabet was invented. This alphabet, commonly referred to as Proto-Canaanite, was invented by Semitic-speaking peoples who were familiar with the Egyptian writing system and modified certain signs to fit into their own language.

“There is a wide misconception in the general public that the Phoenicians invented the alphabet. They didn’t. They adapted and standardized the alphabet several centuries after it was invented,” said Rollston. It was only after this that the ancient Israelites adopted the alphabet, developing their own version from the standardized Phoenician alphabet. The Arameans and Greeks would similarly adopt the Phoenician version of the alphabet, adapting it to form their own scripts. “The alphabet was only invented once, in around 1800 BCE, and all subsequent versions of the alphabet derive, ultimately, from that first alphabet,” Rollston concludes."

None of this has anything to do with Hebrew myths or gods. You really cannot evaluate relevance can you? There is no connection here.

Besides, you cropped out: "The site has likewise supplied an unusual cache of Hebrew texts dating to the Iron Age (c. 1200–586 BCE), when it was one of the most important cities in Judah."

There are Hebrew texts ( different language ) dating from 1200BCE. And that different language doesn't magically poof out of nowhere.

Your own source also says, which you quoted: "was not until around 1800 BCE, according to most scholars, that the first alphabet was invented. This alphabet, commonly referred to as Proto-Canaanite, was invented by Semitic-speaking peoples who were familiar with the Egyptian writing system and modified certain signs to fit into their own language."

Huh? Who were they? Sounds like a group of nomadic people who ended up in Egypt, and were educated there.... Hmmmmm.... That sounds like the story in the Hebrew bible. It's weird that you cannot see this on your own.

Again the earliest pre-Hebrew script is Phoenician, Previously you even denied that Ugari/Canaanite and Phoenician script were related script.


No.... what I deny is that everything should be smooshed together and all the differences ignored so that you can pretend that Judaism is Urgarit. You keep trying to make connections and they fail. I showed you they're different in almost every conceivable way. You copy-pasted from a church website a bunch of false irrelevant nonsense. You tried to sound smart claiming a connection between Ugarit alphabet and Hebrew saying they're both pictoral, but they're obviously not. Anyone can see it looking at Ugaritic. It's a series of seemingly random dashes.

You're not qualified to judge the similarities between ancient scripts.

I'm not the one copying and pasting and not fact checking any of it. You still have not addressed any of the false information you posted. You're not qualified to evaluate fact versus fiction.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
THEIR local language which was DIFFERENT.

Different? Of course. As documented the written Hebrew and alphabet evolved from Ugarit/Canaanite and Phoenician which are older by more than at least 400 years.
No, it's labeled Phoencian, but that doesn't mean Hebrew script came from Phoencians. It's just a label for alphabet used by many of the canaanite languages.



It's funny ( sad ) that your copy-paste technique is reflected here too. I show that you're throwng spaghetti at the wall, you copy-paste that comment back at me, even though it's irrelevant. And I do have knowledge of Hebrew. I showed that you didn't, and here you are copy-pasting those same words back at me.

The truth is, Ugarit and Hebrew ARE very different alphabets. And they ARE different dialects which came from a large region. And Ugarit IS a subset of Canaanite, and the Hebrew IS a different subset of Canaanite. You, like many critics, reduce precision and accuracy in order to make a criticism. Once the precision and accuracy is returned, the criticism becomes invalid.

And none of this has anything to do with Hebrew myths. Still nothing significant about the topic has been brought.

Hebrew myths and texts are clearly a mix of local myths, Gods and culture with Sumerian, Ugarit/Canaanite myths, Gods, and culture.
No.... you have not brought a single example of a shared myth. None. You said there was little doubt that The Ugarite Dan il was the inspiration for the biblical Daniel, but there is nothing, zero, zip, in common between them. NOTHING. And you have not responded to that fact... because IT'S TRUE. You make the claims, again and again, and when they are examined they turn out to be false.

The names of the GODS are not the same at all. They're God is named EL or IL. ELIL is an idol in the Hebrew bible. But you don't know this, and you refuse to learn.

Our God is named YHWH. Do you know what that means? It CANNOT be communicated in two letters. The Ugarite God is name YW. That's it. Two letters. Unless you actually have some knowledge about what YW means in Ugarit, some kind of story that details who this YW is, then all you have is wishful thinking and faith.



None of this has anything to do with Hebrew myths or gods. You really cannot evaluate relevance can you? There is no connection here.

Besides, you cropped out: "The site has likewise supplied an unusual cache of Hebrew texts dating to the Iron Age (c. 1200–586 BCE), when it was one of the most important cities in Judah."

Derived from earlier Phoenician, Ugarit/Canaanite
There are Hebrew texts ( different language ) dating from 1200BCE. And that different language doesn't magically poof out of nowhere.

Your own source also says, which you quoted: "was not until around 1800 BCE, according to most scholars, that the first alphabet was invented. This alphabet, commonly referred to as Proto-Canaanite, was invented by Semitic-speaking peoples who were familiar with the Egyptian writing system and modified certain signs to fit into their own language."

Derived from the earlier Ugarite.Canaanite alphabet and written language dated 1700 to 1800 BCE.
and language
Huh? Who were they? Sounds like a group of nomadic people who ended up in Egypt, and were educated there.... Hmmmmm.... That sounds like the story in the Hebrew bible. It's weird that you cannot see this on your own.




No.... what I deny is that everything should be smooshed together and all the differences ignored so that you can pretend that Judaism is Urgarit. You keep trying to make connections and they fail. I showed you they're different in almost every conceivable way. You copy-pasted from a church website a bunch of false irrelevant nonsense. You tried to sound smart claiming a connection between Ugarit alphabet and Hebrew saying they're both pictoral, but they're obviously not. Anyone can see it looking at Ugaritic. It's a series of seemingly random dashes.



I'm not the one copying and pasting and not fact checking any of it. You still have not addressed any of the false information you posted. You're not qualified to evaluate fact versus fiction.
Your still ignoring the references and dishonestly selectively interpreting the references to justify your agenda.

The first known Hebrew writing is most definitely described as Phoenician, and Hebrew from then evolved to Biblical Hebrew as cited.

Ugarit/Canaanite definitely is dated 1700-1800 BCE as the first alphabet.

The Hebrews were definitely were polytheistic and evolved to Monotheism as cited.
 
Last edited:

Mark Charles Compton

Pineal Peruser
Please note, the earliest pre-Hebrew script is Phoenician, and Ugarit/Canaanite dates to at least 1700 BCE. The Ugaria civilisation was obliterated, but we still found a library containing tablets from many source including Phoenician, and more primitive cuniaform texts. Hypothetical other Hebrew texts is not evidence.
No no no. I am asking, why are there so few?
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Your still ignoring the references and dishonestly selectively interpreting the references to justify your agenda.

No.... there is literally nothing in your posts that indicate polytheism in Judaism. Nothing. There is nothing in your posts that indicate borrowing anything from Ugarit. Nothing. The closet thing anyone is going to get is an akkadian myth that magically appeared in a pre-existing story at the same time that the had contact with the Hebrews.

That's it. You tried to bring Psalms... that was a fail. You tried to bring Proverbs... that was a fail. You tried to bring the scape-goat... that was a fail. You tried to make big deal about weeping for the dead... that's a fail. And a psalm with a verse about boats.... that's a super huge fail. I gave you a list of your fails. You haven't responded to any of them.

The first known Hebrew writing is most definitely described as Phoenician, and Hebrew from then evolved to Biblical Hebrew as cited.

No... it's an alphabet which was shared by the entire region. Hebrew language existed in parallel with the others. They're all different. YOU can't tell the difference. But that isn't saying anything. And, the writing has nothing to so with the origin of the myths. So, that's a triple fail for you.
  1. everyone was using the same alphabet, it wasn't Phoenician
  2. the language is different eventhough the alphabet is the same
  3. the written language is irrelevant to when the myth was conceived and its origin

Ugarit/Canaanite definitely is dated 1700-1800 BCE as the first alphabet.

The ugarite alphabet is below. Under it is the inscription from your link dating back to 1800BCE. They are completely different. The word Ugarit, Ugaritic, anything starting with ugar is completely missing from your own source. You are desperate to bring Ugarit into this. but you're 100% wrong to do so.

Screenshot_20230706_142103.jpg


Screenshot_20230706_142133.jpg


Screenshot_20230706_142418.jpg





The Hebrews were definitely were polytheistic and evolved to Monotheism as cited.

No... you have not brought a single piece of evidence to support that. Your opinion of what is definite is a lacking ANY value at all.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
No.... there is literally nothing in your posts that indicate polytheism in Judaism. Nothing. There is nothing in your posts that indicate borrowing anything from Ugarit. Nothing. The closet thing anyone is going to get is an akkadian myth that magically appeared in a pre-existing story at the same time that the had contact with the Hebrews.

That's it. You tried to bring Psalms... that was a fail. You tried to bring Proverbs... that was a fail. You tried to bring the scape-goat... that was a fail. You tried to make big deal about weeping for the dead... that's a fail. And a psalm with a verse about boats.... that's a super huge fail. I gave you a list of your fails. You haven't responded to any of them.



No... it's an alphabet which was shared by the entire region. Hebrew language existed in parallel with the others. They're all different. YOU can't tell the difference. But that isn't saying anything. And, the writing has nothing to so with the origin of the myths. So, that's a triple fail for you.
  1. everyone was using the same alphabet, it wasn't Phoenician
  2. the language is different eventhough the alphabet is the same
  3. the written language is irrelevant to when the myth was conceived and its origin



The ugarite alphabet is below. Under it is the inscription from your link dating back to 1800BCE. They are completely different. The word Ugarit, Ugaritic, anything starting with ugar is completely missing from your own source. You are desperate to bring Ugarit into this. but you're 100% wrong to do so.

View attachment 79283


View attachment 79284

View attachment 79285






No... you have not brought a single piece of evidence to support that. Your opinion of what is definite is a lacking ANY value at all.
Your are still dishonestly stonewalling with a stubborn ancient religious agenda and ignoring the sources.

Jewish scholars acknowledge that Judaism evolved from polytheism to Monotheism.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Your are still dishonestly stonewalling with a stubborn ancient religious agenda and ignoring the sources.

No. I'm showing you repeatedly that you have a real problem connecting facts with a claim your trying to make.

Jewish scholars acknowledge that Judaism evolved from polytheism to Monotheism.

Jewish or not is irrelevant. You're still leaning on religion and religious people. You need actual facts. I've read the opinion of Jewish scholars who try to make the same claims you are. Their arguments are just as weak and pathetic as yours are. They are saying nothing different than what you're saying. I've basically heard it all before. That's why I could refute what you said so quickly. You proabably thought what you copy-pasted was so long and so well researched how could anyone refute it. Guess again. It's all old news.

There are no good examples showing Judaism evolved from polytheism. There is boatloads of evidence that Judaism rejects polytheism. Your problem is you mistake the fact that Jewish people became polytheists, with some other different idea that Judaism was OK with it and promoted it.

And you still haven't brought a single thing that was actually borrowed from Ugarit. None. Your passion about it is not an argument. I gave you a list of things you got wrong. Why haven't you answered any of those things? If you do not have the integrity to admit you were wrong, there's no reason to believe more unevidenced claims. If you cannot tell the difference between fact and fiction, there's no reason to believe more unevidenced claims. If you won't eductate yourself, and read the posts, and you are commited to being ignorant, there's no reason to believe more unevidenced claims.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
No. I'm showing you repeatedly that you have a real problem connecting facts with a claim your trying to make.



Jewish or not is irrelevant. You're still leaning on religion and religious people. You need actual facts. I've read the opinion of Jewish scholars who try to make the same claims you are. Their arguments are just as weak and pathetic as yours are. They are saying nothing different than what you're saying. I've basically heard it all before. That's why I could refute what you said so quickly. You proabably thought what you copy-pasted was so long and so well researched how could anyone refute it. Guess again. It's all old news.

There are no good examples showing Judaism evolved from polytheism. There is boatloads of evidence that Judaism rejects polytheism. Your problem is you mistake the fact that Jewish people became polytheists, with some other different idea that Judaism was OK with it and promoted it.

And you still haven't brought a single thing that was actually borrowed from Ugarit. None. Your passion about it is not an argument. I gave you a list of things you got wrong. Why haven't you answered any of those things? If you do not have the integrity to admit you were wrong, there's no reason to believe more unevidenced claims. If you cannot tell the difference between fact and fiction, there's no reason to believe more unevidenced claims. If you won't eductate yourself, and read the posts, and you are commited to being ignorant, there's no reason to believe more unevidenced claims.\
You lack an standing academically to make such outrageous claims in contrast and in contradiction to the scholars in the fields related to the topic. You make up your own story as you go, and reject the scholar references provided.
 
Last edited:

Muffled

Jesus in me
Yeah, but to the rest of us, it just means you believe that. And it still doesn't explain what God is.
I believe my belief has a sound basis. I believe one and one equals two and I have a sound basis for believing that. I am not like some who just assume their belief that there is no God is true.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
I haven't been following and have just skimmed the debate between Shuny and dyb over the Semitic languages, but I see that most of it is a lot of cutting and pasting. There is a vast literature on the subject of language relationships in that area. Basically, Ugaritic, Hebrew, Amoritic, Aramaic, and Phoenician were Canaanite languages descended from Proto-West-Semitic. Semitic languages were traditionally divided into East Semitic and West Semitic. East Semitic included Akkadian, which supplied some of the historical underpinning for the Hebrew Pentateuch and other Canaanite mythologies such as what was discovered in Ugaritic. Hebrew itself became extinct centuries ago but was revived in the 20th century in its current modern form. It is important to bear in mind that there is a lot of debate over the proper classification of Semitic languages, so the old East/West split has been superseded. Not being a Semitic scholar, I can't really comment on the current state of the debate. However, AFAIK, there was little contact between Ugaritic and Hebrew speakers, although there were likely trade contacts.

All of the syllabic and alphabetic writing systems descend from commonly used ideographic writing in the region, which is related to Egyptian hieroglyphic ideograms. In fact, pretty much all of the alphabetic writing systems in the modern world descend from that ancient pictographic/ideographic system of writing, even the Korean alphabet known as Hangul. AFAIK, Chinese pictograms and ideograms arose separately from the Afro-Asiatic writing systems.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I believe He is what He says He is.
I believe my belief has a sound basis. I believe one and one equals two and I have a sound basis for believing that. I am not like some who just assume their belief that there is no God is true.

I am not saying there is no God. I am say my belief is the correct one and yours is the wrong one. I believe my belief has a sound basis. I believe one and one equals two and I have a sound basis for believing that. I am not like some who just assume their belief that there is no God is true or has a false belief in a false God.
I am right and you are wrong and that is how it is.

I can do that too.
Your turn.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I believe my belief has a sound basis. I believe one and one equals two and I have a sound basis for believing that. I am not like some who just assume their belief that there is no God is true.

Your belief remains as subject and unsupported as those that believe there is no reason to believe in God. There is reasonable doubt both views may not be true, because there is no objective evidence either way.
 
Top