Pollyanna syndrome and determinism

[Estro Felino]

OK, but what's the connection to narcissism?

Pollyannas tend to be narcissistic.
I have met some of them. They believe that because they are happy, everyone in the world is.

 

[Stevicus]

When I used to watch Pollyanna anime...I had the impression this child was exaggeratedly optimistic.
I identified with her aunt...who was more realistic...I guess. That was my favorite character.

But I didn't realize that in psychology there was this syndrome of people who in my opinion are too deterministic...that is they are exaggeratedly optimistic and their choices are without caution or prudence at all.
Fear is not negative. It makes us prudent.
We must rely on our free will: the others cannot and must not control our own lives because they have no idea what our life looks life.
Do not trust those who say "it will be all right in the end". Make your own choice.


Thoughts?

I've encountered the Pollyanna types, those who are excessively optimistic and positive about everything. Norman Vincent Peale was probably an influential figure in this area, as he wrote a book entitled "The Power of Positive Thinking." When I was in my teens and twenties, a big thing at the time was "positive affirmations," which later became an SNL parody called "Daily Affirmations With Stuart Smalley." It's almost like the whole country became gripped by Pollyanna thinking during the Reagan era, and it's just continued ever since.

 

[Estro Felino]

I've encountered the Pollyanna types, those who are excessively optimistic and positive about everything. Norman Vincent Peale was probably an influential figure in this area, as he wrote a book entitled "The Power of Positive Thinking." When I was in my teens and twenties, a big thing at the time was "positive affirmations," which later became an SNL parody called "Daily Affirmations With Stuart Smalley." It's almost like the whole country became gripped by Pollyanna thinking during the Reagan era, and it's just continued ever since.

Thank you, I will check that out.
I was thinking something: that in the US psychologists really deepen important aspects of relationships.
How we interact with others.
Trust me...I have met several psychologists, in two different areas of my country and they are all the same: they think you go to the psychologist to let off steam, whereas most people go to them because they want answers.
And American psychologists give answers, they do their best to interpret interactions among human beings.

There's no doubt: they are better than our therapists.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

With all due respect...but there's nothing pre-determined.
You exist because years ago your parents decided to have sex.
There was nothing "pre-determined" in that act.

How would you determine that?
How would you support that?
If the universe and everything it contains is deterministic, then logically everything that happens, incl people having sex, would be a case of predetermination, no?

I think we are the result of people's free will

Sure. But just because you "think so" doesn't mean it also is so.

...but people are too egopathic and egocentric that they believe that they were pre-determined to do great things.

Euh... I think the exact opposite is true.
I think humans would psychologically instead have problems with the idea that they in fact perhaps are NOT in control of their actions and lives.
The idea of everything being deterministic, and thus there being no such thing as free will, is in fact what most people find very disturbing.

Now, I do have the notion that I have control over my actions and decisions and when I move my arm, it certainly feels as if it was a free decision to do so.
But I wouldn't know how to support or prove that is actually so. Or not so, for that matter. It's not like I could go back in time to see if it was actually possible to act / decide differently.

 

[Alien826]

Pollyannas tend to be narcissistic.
I have met some of them. They believe that because they are happy, everyone in the world is.

Do you have anything to support that? I would have thought that pollyannas would be unlikely to be narcissistic. Narcissists need constant reinforcement of their own (as they see them) superior qualities. Pollyannas have no doubt about themselves.

 

[Estro Felino]

Do you have anything to support that? I would have thought that pollyannas would be unlikely to be narcissistic. Narcissists need constant reinforcement of their own (as they see them) superior qualities. Pollyannas have no doubt about themselves.

As a pessimist ...I can assure you that all the flaws I see in myself make me pessimistic about human nature.

What is wrong with Pollyannas is that they don't see any flaws in themselves.
Even if there are.
We are all sinners, we Christians say.

 

[Estro Felino]

How would you determine that?
How would you support that?
If the universe and everything it contains is deterministic, then logically everything that happens, incl people having sex, would be a case of predetermination, no?



Sure. But just because you "think so" doesn't mean it also is so.


Euh... I think the exact opposite is true.
I think humans would psychologically instead have problems with the idea that they in fact perhaps are NOT in control of their actions and lives.
The idea of everything being deterministic, and thus there being no such thing as free will, is in fact what most people find very disturbing.

Now, I do have the notion that I have control over my actions and decisions and when I move my arm, it certainly feels as if it was a free decision to do so.
But I wouldn't know how to support or prove that is actually so. Or not so, for that matter. It's not like I could go back in time to see if it was actually possible to act / decide differently.

A debate about psychology would require a rélation au pair.

I mean... it's too unbalanced. You ask questions and demand answers. I answer your questions but you won't answer my questions.
Too unbalanced.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

A debate about psychology would require a rélation au pair.

I mean... it's too unbalanced. You ask questions and demand answers. I answer your questions but you won't answer my questions.
Too unbalanced.

It's funny because you didn't answer a single one of my questions...
It was also my first post in this thread, so there weren't any questions from you for me to answer.
If you wish to try again to actually respond to what I wrote, be my guest. If not.... oh well.

 

[Estro Felino]

@TagliatelliMonster
Ok. Quid pro quo. I answer a question of your and you answer one of mine

You asked:

How would you determine that?
How would you support that?
If the universe and everything it contains is deterministic, then logically everything that happens, incl people having sex, would be a case of predetermination, no?

Sex is something we decide. I know that because I dated countless men in my life. I decided to have sex with some of them...and I refused to have sex with some others.
As you can see, there is nothing pre-determined. It was not meant to be (I really hate this expression) that I had sex with those men. I decided.


My question: do you believe wars are inevitable, or wars are the result of people's free will?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Sex is something we decide. I know that because I dated countless men in my life. I decided to have sex with some of them...and I refused to have sex with some others.
As you can see, there is nothing pre-determined. It was not meant to be (I really hate this expression) that I had sex with those men. I decided.

You are completely ignoring the point I actually made.
How would you support / demonstrate that what you experienced / interpreted as a free will decision, was actually a free will decision?
How would you differentiate a decision that is the result of determinism from a decision that is the result of free choice?

You didn't answer the question at all. You just repeated the claim that I'm questioning.

My question: do you believe wars are inevitable, or wars are the result of people's free will?

I don't know.

For all practical intents and purposes, I assume that free will exists and that people are capable of deciding to NOT engage in violence and stuff, because that is how I seem to experience my own decisions / free will.

But I can't prove or support or demonstrate that such is the case. And it is a bit disturbing that there actually are good arguments to be made from the perspective of physics etc, that in the universe (incl everything it contains) is in fact deterministic meaning that in such case, free will actually doesn't exist. That is in fact why this discussion even exists... because there seem to be reasons to think that our "feelings" of being able to make free decision are actually just illusions.

 

[Estro Felino]

You are completely ignoring the point I actually made.
How would you support / demonstrate that what you experienced / interpreted as a free will decision, was actually a free will decision?
How would you differentiate a decision that is the result of determinism from a decision that is the result of free choice?

You didn't answer the question at all. You just repeated the claim that I'm questioning.

The proof is that I didn't sleep with all of them.
I could have slept with all of them...because I like men, and they were cute.
The fact that I slept with just some of them, and I said no to others, proves that I can control my sex drives and so there is nothing pre-determined.
Wisdom...have you ever thought of this word? When you think an action is not wise...or convenient.

I don't know.

For all practical intents and purposes, I assume that free will exists and that people are capable of deciding to NOT engage in violence and stuff, because that is how I seem to experience my own decisions / free will.

That's great. Very good insight.

But I can't prove or support or demonstrate that such is the case. And it is a bit disturbing that there actually are good arguments to be made from the perspective of physics etc, that in the universe (incl everything it contains) is in fact deterministic meaning that in such case, free will actually doesn't exist. That is in fact why this discussion even exists... because there seem to be reasons to think that our "feelings" of being able to make free decision are actually just illusions.

Honestly I think that as Hannah Arendt wrote in her books...like in The Banality of Evil, there was nothing "pre-determined" in the Holocaust.

Nazis were not handicapped. They were perfectly sound people who made wicked decisions.

Unless you want to affirm that sadism (which is present in animals, like the lion that mauls the gazelle to death) and sadistic pleasure are due to the fact that we human beings are animals. Do you believe we are animals?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The proof is that I didn't sleep with all of them.

That's not proof of anything. If determinism is real and free will is not, then determinism is what caused you to sleep with only some of them.

It seems you still don't comprehend the question and are still stuck just repeating your claims.

I could have slept with all of them...because I like men, and they were cute.
The fact that I slept with just some of them, and I said no to others, proves that I can control my sex drives and so there is nothing pre-determined.

It does not. The question is not about what you did, it's about what caused you to do what you did. A free will decision, or a deterministic process.
I'm saying that you feel like it was a free will decision, but you are completely unable to demonstrate / support that.
We can't go back in time and test if you could make an alternative decision. You "feel" like you could, but if free will is just an illusion, then this "feeling" is not reflective of actual reality.

Honestly I think that as Hannah Arendt wrote in her books...like in The Banality of Evil, there was nothing "pre-determined" in the Holocaust.
Nazis were not handicapped. They were perfectly sound people who made wicked decisions.

You continue to talk from the unquestionable assumption that a decision necessarily is the result of free will.
Yes, you "think" this is the case. You "feel" this is the case. So do I. But IS it actually the case? How could we prove / support / demonstrate it is the case?
It's not clear to me at all that we could. In fact, I think we can't.

We assume it is so because it feels like it is so. But we don't know. And we have this discussion because as counter-intuitive as it might be, there are actual reasons and sound arguments to be made to argue that it is in fact NOT so.

Unless you want to affirm that sadism (which is present in animals, like the lion that mauls the gazelle to death) and sadistic pleasure are due to the fact that we human beings are animals. Do you believe we are animals?

That has absolutely nothing to do with it at all.

Also, sadism is not a word that applies to lions mauling a gazelle.
A lion mauling a gazelle is just a lion who is eating.


Having said that, none of that has anything to do with the topic of free will vs determinism

 

[Estro Felino]

That's not proof of anything. If determinism is real and free will is not, then determinism is what caused you to sleep with only some of them.

It seems you still don't comprehend the question and are still stuck just repeating your claims.



It does not. The question is not about what you did, it's about what caused you to do what you did. A free will decision, or a deterministic process.
I'm saying that you feel like it was a free will decision, but you are completely unable to demonstrate / support that.
We can't go back in time and test if you could make an alternative decision. You "feel" like you could, but if free will is just an illusion, then this "feeling" is not reflective of actual reality.



You continue to talk from the unquestionable assumption that a decision necessarily is the result of free will.
Yes, you "think" this is the case. You "feel" this is the case. So do I. But IS it actually the case? How could we prove / support / demonstrate it is the case?
It's not clear to me at all that we could. In fact, I think we can't.

We assume it is so because it feels like it is so. But we don't know. And we have this discussion because as counter-intuitive as it might be, there are actual reasons and sound arguments to be made to argue that it is in fact NOT so.



That has absolutely nothing to do with it at all.

Also, sadism is not a word that applies to lions mauling a gazelle.
A lion mauling a gazelle is just a lion who is eating.


Having said that, none of that has anything to do with the topic of free will vs determinism

Ok.
You have made it clear there is no prove free will even exists, since that cannot be demonstrated. That's fine.

The purpose of the thread and my question is: do you believe pollyannas exist?
And what do you think of them?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Ok.
You have made it clear there is no prove free will even exists, since that cannot be demonstrated. That's fine.

The purpose of the thread and my question is: do you believe pollyannas exist?
And what do you think of them?

I'm not even entirely sure what is meant by it.

If you are asking if I think "overly optimistic" people, to the point of being -say- irrationally optimistic, then sure. I don't see why such people wouldn't, or couldn't, exist.

 

[Estro Felino]

I'm not even entirely sure what is meant by it.

If you are asking if I think "overly optimistic" people, to the point of being -say- irrationally optimistic, then sure. I don't see why such people wouldn't, or couldn't, exist.

I see too many pollyannas in the 21st century.
Women.
Women who think that having baby is the greatest thing ever....then they get pregnant, they complain because they had a painful pregnancy, they complain because they had a C-section, they complain because they didn't sleep at all, for the baby's first years of life.

They play the victims...but it was them who did anything to become pregnant.
I tell them all the time: sweetheart...you are not handicapped. You decided to have sex and become pregnant. Look at me...I had sex with countless men and never got pregnant.

 

[Stevicus]

Thank you, I will check that out.
I was thinking something: that in the US psychologists really deepen important aspects of relationships.
How we interact with others.
Trust me...I have met several psychologists, in two different areas of my country and they are all the same: they think you go to the psychologist to let off steam, whereas most people go to them because they want answers.
And American psychologists give answers, they do their best to interpret interactions among human beings.

There's no doubt: they are better than our therapists.

I'm not sure if American psychologists are that much different. But I agree that people go to them wanting answers. It's no different than any other doctor, where they might perform some tests and make some sort of diagnosis as to what is ailing a person. They might do various scans, x-rays, blood tests, etc., to determine what is wrong with a patient and a possible course of treatment based on medical, scientific data and established practices.

With psychologists, it's hard to say. Psychological tests seem more abstract and vague. It seems more like guesswork and woo, which is probably why they don't really have any answers. To ask a psychologist "what's wrong with me" is as useful as asking a clergyman "why does God allow suffering." Neither one can offer any real truly scientific answer.

 

[Kathryn]

And yet, Biden ended the war in Afghanistan.
(BTW, Trump promised to, but failed.)

TRUE STORY TIME!

I was the last Officer's Wives Club president in Aschaffenburg, Germany because they shut the base down. (This was right after they renovated the kitchens in all the housing by the way - which is now torn down.) The waste was amazing. For instance, one thing I remember in striking detail was that we were told that the base was giving away leather sneakers - hundreds of them - so turn in all our sizes (I had four kids at the time so that was six pairs). We gave away tons of crystal too. It was all very interesting.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I see too many pollyannas in the 21st century.
Women.
Women who think that having baby is the greatest thing ever....then they get pregnant, they complain because they had a painful pregnancy, they complain because they had a C-section, they complain because they didn't sleep at all, for the baby's first years of life.

They play the victims...but it was them who did anything to become pregnant.
I tell them all the time: sweetheart...you are not handicapped. You decided to have sex and become pregnant. Look at me...I had sex with countless men and never got pregnant.

Aren't you a biological male who turned female?

 

[Estro Felino]

Aren't you a biological male who turned female?

Even if I had had a functioning uterus, I would have been wise enough not to get pregnant.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Even if I had had a functioning uterus,

So in other words, your rather arrogant comment was incredibly misplaced.

I would have been wise enough not to get pregnant.

How easy to say when you don't actually have female reproductive organs.