Pope Francis and Sheikh Ahmed al-Tayeb sign document on human fraternity.

[LuisDantas]

There is such a thing as being too timid to pass the correct message.

Unfortunately, this document fills all the proper criteria to fall into such a situation.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I wasn't specifically addressing this document; I meant in general, especially because I've heard some Muslims actually cite the aforementioned homophobic and sexist attitudes as a reason for "unity with Christians" or as evidence that both religions have "heavenly origins."

I agree on the second point. I don't hold my breath nowadays when it comes to expectations of progress or reform from leaders of Abrahamic religious institutions, which also makes me appreciate major positive steps much more.

I can’t imagine Islam, Catholicism, conservative Christianity, Orthodox Judaism or the Baha’i Faith will become LBGTQ+ affirming anytime soon. However there are spaces within reformed Judaism and liberal Christianity. But if you are an atheist why would it matter? It doesn’t where I live in New Zealand. Half our population isn’t affiliated with any religion, God is a swear word likely to reduce your chances of election if you’re a politician and our laws affirm LBGTQ+. Our prime minister was an unmarried women in her 30s when she took office and had her first child a year ago. In short we’re a liberal utopia if that’s what you’re looking for.

Jacinda Ardern - Wikipedia

 

[Debater Slayer]

I can’t imagine Islam, Catholicism, conservative Christianity, Orthodox Judaism or the Baha’i Faith will become LBGTQ+ affirming anytime soon. However there are spaces within reformed Judaism and liberal Christianity. But if you are an atheist why would it matter? It doesn’t where I live in New Zealand. Half our population isn’t affiliated with any religion, God is a swear word likely to reduce your chances of election if you’re a politician and our laws affirm LBGTQ+. Our prime minister was an unmarried women in her 30s when she took office and had her first child a year ago. In short we’re a liberal utopia if that’s what you’re looking for.

Jacinda Ardern - Wikipedia

It matters because such religious teachings heavily influence both social and legal aspects of my country and region in general. In a country like New Zealand where the state and vast majority of people don't harbor such prejudices, it wouldn't matter to me unless it started inspiring inhumane treatment of others whether socially or legally--and it often does elsewhere (not sure about social life in New Zealand). I'm thinking of how depressed and isolated LGBT children of homophobic families tend to be, for example.

Also, I think of it this way: even without legal influence, would I be okay with a religion that didn't affirm, say, black skin color or green eyes and somehow viewed either as a sin? Since my answer to that hypothetical question is a no and I would vocally criticize that specific teaching, I see no reason whatsoever to be any more apathetic when skin or eye color is replaced with sexual orientation.

We clearly view this through our different backgrounds, which is something I totally respect. I just recognize that it's thankfully not nearly as major of an issue in certain other parts of the world.

 

[metis]

I can’t imagine Islam, Catholicism, conservative Christianity, Orthodox Judaism or the Baha’i Faith will become LBGTQ+ affirming anytime soon.

Even though the official position of the RCC is not likely to change, Pope Francis has pretty much opened that door by welcoming the LBGTQ back into the Church and allowing parish priests to decide on whether they can fully participate in the Eucharist. Needless to say, this has not gone over well with the conservative cardinals, bishops, and priests.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I wasn't specifically addressing this document; I meant in general, especially because I've heard some Muslims actually cite the aforementioned homophobic and sexist attitudes as a reason for "unity with Christians" or as evidence that both religions have "heavenly origins."

I agree on the second point. I don't hold my breath nowadays when it comes to expectations of progress or reform from leaders of Abrahamic religious institutions, which also makes me appreciate major positive steps much more.

People are fraternal in Adam in a sense
Christians are brothers in Christ in another sense (having an adoption)

There is both overlap and some uniqueness of views

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Even though the official position of the RCC is not likely to change, Pope Francis has pretty much opened that door by welcoming the LBGTQ back into the Church and allowing parish priests to decide on whether they can fully participate in the Eucharist. Needless to say, this has not gone over well with the conservative cardinals, bishops, and priests.

When does change ever go over well with Conservatives? Fact is, when there are major social changes, organisations adapt or die. We can argue about the spiritual pros and cons of homosexuality all day, but realistically, 5he church has to choose between accepting social change, or holding to old ideas and losing relevance to modern populations. Again, you can make arguments either way, but my interpretation is that Francis is setting the church up to survive in a changing world. The conservatives won't like it, but they'd probably like a failed church even less.

 

[metis]

When does change ever go over well with Conservatives? Fact is, when there are major social changes, organisations adapt or die. We can argue about the spiritual pros and cons of homosexuality all day, but realistically, 5he church has to choose between accepting social change, or holding to old ideas and losing relevance to modern populations. Again, you can make arguments either way, but my interpretation is that Francis is setting the church up to survive in a changing world. The conservatives won't like it, but they'd probably like a failed church even less.

Yep, but it's a delicate balance between the two. For me, I agree that PF is going in a direction I'm more comfortable with at least.

 

[exchemist]

When does change ever go over well with Conservatives? Fact is, when there are major social changes, organisations adapt or die. We can argue about the spiritual pros and cons of homosexuality all day, but realistically, 5he church has to choose between accepting social change, or holding to old ideas and losing relevance to modern populations. Again, you can make arguments either way, but my interpretation is that Francis is setting the church up to survive in a changing world. The conservatives won't like it, but they'd probably like a failed church even less.

Agree. The church has a lot of self-examination to do about sexual morality, as shown by recent scandals. Furthermore almost all the strictures on sexual behaviour come, not from the Gospels, but from a highly doubtful - and rather unconvincing- theological concept called "natural law". This is ripe for review, in my opinion.