Pope Francis condemns exploitative bosses as 'bloodsuckers' who make workers 'slaves'

[Sunstone]

No, it doesn't. What I'm objecting to isn't the factualness of what he's saying; it's the attempt through this speech and others to rebrand the Catholic Church as a guardian of social justice, despite its history - some of it quite recent - and current activities.

Oh, I see. That makes much more sense. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't like them either, but it's really kind of funny how the right wing Christians are the bosses who exploit workers, but their leader, who you would think would want to appeal to them, is condemning them.

I think it's rather suitable. It's not like Jesus would approve of what most of his followers have all been doing anyways.

 

[C-Faith]

Did not the apostles "represent" Jesus after Jesus was crucified?

Remember, the word "represent" does not mean "the same as...". My congressman represents me, but he is not me.

The pope is NOT an apostle.

The pope is being called "Holy Father" and that is blasphemy (John 17: 11).

Your congressman represents you in terms of doing something for you, but you don't treat him like God............

 

[Glaurung]

The pope is NOT an apostle.

He isn't claimed to be. All bishops including the pope are their successors. The pope being the successor of Saint Peter specifically.

The pope is being called "Holy Father" and that is blasphemy (John 17: 11).

All priests are called father, in fact that is what the word pope actually means. This isn't in any way a statement that they are equal with 'The Father' no more than calling your biological father, father is equivocating him with God. It's just an honorific.

Your congressman represents you in terms of doing something for you, but you don't treat him like God............

And Catholicism does not teach that the pope is in any way to be considered as God on earth. He and the bishops are fallible mortals, as were the Apostles. But like the Apostles they do hold an office of authority given first to the Apostles and bequeathed down in a line of succession that continues to this day. At least that is what the Catholic and Orthodox claim, and whatever you may think of that claim it's is nothing close to the bogus charges of 'blasphemy' you're pulling out of thin air. In brief, you're stawmanning Catholic doctrine.

I suggest you do some honest research on what the Catholic Chruch actually claims and teaches. It's really silly to come to a thread and start attacking Catholicism with gross mischaracterisations and random Bible quotes, especially when it's not even relevant to the topic. Just because a thread should mention or be about the pope isn't in and of itself an invitation to come out of nowhere and start proselytising your objections to Catholicism. You can always create your own thread if you wish to have that discussion.

 

[Crypto2015]

The Catholic Church is a contributing factor to the persecution of Africa's LGBTs, as are evangelical Christians from America. And if your "one trick pony" comment is aimed at the RCC aiding and abetting child molesters, it's not lame. It's completely relevant. Mentioning this will continue being relevant as long as the Catholic Church claims moral authority from God; it'll continue as long as the Catholic Church keeps on with its current practices of not releasing the information it has collected over the decades about known paedophile clerics; it'll continue as long as the Pope or any member of the Catholic hierarchy keep on giving un-asked-for statements on moral or ethical issues. People who want to see the Catholic Church treated just like any other criminal organisation aren't going to stop talking about it because you're getting sick and tired of hearing about it. And to be clear, I actually agree with the Pope on this particular issue. I just don't see that he has much room to talk since the Church has been massing wealth for over a millennium and the Church has been caught money-laundering for the likes of the Cosa Nostra.

Christianity does not condone any form of violence against anyone. For someone who attacks Christianity almost on a daily basis, you know surprisingly little about Christianity. Perhaps it is time for you to actually read the Bible, don't you think?

 

[jeager106]

Just plug "crimes of the catholic church" into your internet search engine and get
ready for a loooooong read up to and including modern times.
If you read enough you will learn of the Church smuggling guns into various
countries to promote a political coup in favor of the Church.
The Catholic Church is very involved in world politics & has been for centuries.
The Church was openly involved in a number of armed Crusades of ancient
history and is involved in armed insurrections to this day.
Do a little "googling" for your self.
More Catholics means more power.
“The Catholic church is the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence."

^ http://humansarefree.com/2012/03/christian-church-is-biggest-financial.html

There is much information available on the power of the Catholic Church on the net, books
and libraries.
I am in no way knocking Catholics. We are free to worship as we please.
Fact is that 60 % of J.W's were Catholics.
Google that if you like.
Don't ask me why though as I have no clue why a Catholic would become a J.W.

 

[Deidre]

No, it doesn't. What I'm objecting to isn't the factualness of what he's saying; it's the attempt through this speech and others to rebrand the Catholic Church as a guardian of social justice, despite its history - some of it quite recent - and current activities.

I agree with this, completely. I don't dislike this Pope, his heart seems to be in a good place most times, but I don't care to hear him lamenting about common sense topics in the news, anymore. Get out, bad bosses are...bad? What? No way. Greed is bad too? And slavery too? What? This is all news to me. I wouldn't have thought that, had the Pope not 'condemned' it.

 

[Deidre]

And he shouldn't get to dictate to anyone at all, the state of their souls. This is why I'll never return to the RCC, for mere mortals telling other mere mortals that they will end up in hell, is just not very Christian-like. No one on earth has the power to tell another person if he/she will be in heaven. But, the RCC is still selling this nonsense, and plenty of people are still believing that it is the conduit between them and Jesus. It isn't. No one needs a church to gain closeness with God. Meanwhile, the RCC is the wealthiest religious organization in the world...hmm...guess that slips under the Pope's 'social justice' radar.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Christianity does not condone any form of violence against anyone. For someone who attacks Christianity almost on a daily basis, you know surprisingly little about Christianity. Perhaps it is time for you to actually read the Bible, don't you think?

The problem isn't with how I read the Bible. The problem lies with people who focus on verses like Leviticus 20:13 "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (NIV), people who don't understand context - specifically that the above verse was part of the law of Moses which was given to the Jews, and that Gentiles are not expected to abide by.

The fact you keep trotting out these tropes shows you still have a very naive view of how the world really is. Try saying "Christianity does not condone any form of violence against anyone." to other members of this forum. Particularly LGBT members. They'll laugh you back into the vestibules. Of course Christianity condones violence against people. There are Christian terrorists all over the place:

• the Lord's Resistance Army; (Uganda)
• The National Liberation Front of Tripura; (India)
• the KKK; (USA)
  
• the Manmasi National Christian Army; (Assam)
• the Army of God; (USA)
• the Montana Freemen; (USA)
• The Covenant, the Sword and Arm of the Lord; (USA)
• Defensive Action; (USA)

All these groups are or were spurred on by their beliefs in aspects of Christian theology. They are Christian terrorists.

 

[MARCELLO]

The genocide in Africa against homosexuals is by Islamic extremists, not this Pope nor by the Catholic church. There are some really lame cases in this discussion, a one trick pony that is really lame.

No,I am sorry that does not reflect the truth very well. West africa ,central africa dominantly are christian but they are more hostile to gay people. Even the non extremists over there hate homosexuals.

Just google nigeria-uganda the congos,you will be surprised.

 

[Crypto2015]

The problem isn't with how I read the Bible. The problem lies with people who focus on verses like Leviticus 20:13 "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (NIV), people who don't understand context - specifically that the above verse was part of the law of Moses which was given to the Jews, and that Gentiles are not expected to abide by.

The fact you keep trotting out these tropes shows you still have a very naive view of how the world really is. Try saying "Christianity does not condone any form of violence against anyone." to other members of this forum. Particularly LGBT members. They'll laugh you back into the vestibules. Of course Christianity condones violence against people. There are Christian terrorists all over the place:

• the Lord's Resistance Army; (Uganda)
• The National Liberation Front of Tripura; (India)
• the KKK; (USA)
  
• the Manmasi National Christian Army; (Assam)
• the Army of God; (USA)
• the Montana Freemen; (USA)
• The Covenant, the Sword and Arm of the Lord; (USA)
• Defensive Action; (USA)

All these groups are or were spurred on by their beliefs in aspects of Christian theology. They are Christian terrorists.

Leviticus does not apply to Christians, at least not as a legal code. When the early church was discussing the application of the Law of Moses after Jesus' resurrection, the apostles decided that those who are in Christ do not need to follow the Law of Moses as a legal code. The apostles wrote this letter to the Gentile Christians:

"Then the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, decided to select men who were among them and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas: Judas, called Barsabbas, and Silas, both leading men among the brothers. They wrote this letter to be delivered by them: From the apostles and the elders, your brothers, To the brothers among the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. Because we have heard that some without our authorization went out from us and troubled you with their words and unsettled your hearts, we have unanimously decided to select men and send them to you along with our dearly loved Barnabas and Paul, who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who will personally report the same things by word of mouth. For it was the Holy Spirit's decision--and ours--to put no greater burden on you than these necessary things: that you abstain from food offered to idols, from blood, from eating anything that has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. You will do well if you keep yourselves from these things. Farewell." (Acts 15:22-29)

That's why Jesus saved an adulterous woman from being stoned to death, although according to Leviticus adultery carries the death penalty by stoning (Leviticus 20:10).

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women.Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap,in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." (John 8:3-11)

If you cared about the truth you would change your opinion on Christianity. However, it seems to me that it is pretty obvious that you don't actually care about the truth when it comes to Christianity.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Leviticus does not apply to Christians, at least not as a legal code. When the early church was discussing the application of the Law of Moses after Jesus' resurrection, the apostles decided that those who are in Christ do not need to follow the Law of Moses as a legal code.

Leviticus includes the Ten Commandments.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree with this, completely. I don't dislike this Pope, his heart seems to be in a good place most times, but I don't care to hear him lamenting about common sense topics in the news, anymore. Get out, bad bosses are...bad? What? No way. Greed is bad too? And slavery too? What? This is all news to me. I wouldn't have thought that, had the Pope not 'condemned' it.

I agree: it seems like a no-brainer to me. I think it says volumes about modern Christianity that "treat your employees with respect" is considered a radical view.

 

[Crypto2015]

Leviticus includes the Ten Commandments.

Yes, and that is not a problem at all. The Law of Moses has not been abolished and will never be abolished. When Jesus came he revealed for the first time that the purpose of the Law was to demonstrate that all men are sinners and that all men need to be saved. That's why Jesus asked that crowd to reflect on their own situation before God instead of rushing to condemn others. The point that Jesus was stressing is that the real aim of the Law was to point towards our sinful nature in order to make us understand how much we need God's forgiveness and grace. In that sense, the Law will always be useful and it is eternally valid. However, after Jesus' sacrifice, the role of the law as a legal code finished. That's why Jesus never stoned anyone to death (he actually saved people from being stoned to death), and that's why neither the apostles nor the early church ever executed anyone.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, and that is not a problem at all. The Law of Moses has not been abolished and will never be abolished. When Jesus came he revealed for the first time that the purpose of the Law was to demonstrate that all men are sinners and that all men need to be saved. That's why Jesus asked that crowd to reflect on their own situation before God instead of rushing to condemn others. The point that Jesus was stressing is that the real aim of the Law was to point towards our sinful nature in order to make us understand how much we need God's forgiveness and grace. In that sense, the Law will always be useful and it is eternally valid. However, after Jesus' sacrifice, the role of the law as a legal code finished. That's why Jesus never stoned anyone to death (he actually saved people from being stoned to death), and that's why neither the apostles nor the early church ever executed anyone.

I just noticed this & your prior post (#31).
Does this mean that the 10 commandments (being in Leviticus...whatever that is) don't apply to Xians?
Or is it that some things in Leviticus apply, & some don't?
Who gets to decide which?

If I were a god who had moral laws,
I'd place clear public notices everywhere.
And I'd update them regularly as culture & language change.
I'd also smite only the wicked....it wouldn't be so random.

 

[Crypto2015]

I just noticed this & your prior post (#31).
Does this mean that the 10 commandments (being in Leviticus...whatever that is) don't apply to Xians?
Or is it that some things in Leviticus apply, & some don't?
Who gets to decide which?

If I were a god who had moral laws,
I'd place clear public notices everywhere.
And I'd update them regularly as culture & language change.
I'd also smite only the wicked....it wouldn't be so random.

They apply all of us in the sense that the Ten Commandments (and the Law of Moses in general) show us that we have all sinned against God and deserve condemnation.

"Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people." (Galatians 3:19)

So, the Law is eternal in the sense that it shows us that we have sinned and that we are in need of God's grace in order to be saved. The Law shows us that no human being is just. However, as a legal code, the Law stopped being binding once the Grace was revealed. That is, the Law stopped being binding when Jesus started his ministry.

“But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code [the Law]." (Romans 7:6)

Regarding what you said about updating the commandments according to our times, that is not necessary because:

"In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets." (Jesus in Matthew 7:12)

 

[Revoltingest]

They apply all of us in the sense that the Ten Commandments (and the Law of Moses in general) show us that we have all sinned against God and deserve condemnation.

"Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people." (Galatians 3:19)

So, the Law is eternal in the sense that it shows us that we have sinned and that we are in need of God's grace in order to be saved. The Law shows us that no human being is just. However, as a legal code, the Law stopped being binding once the Grace was revealed. That is, the Law stopped being binding when Jesus started his ministry.

“But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code [the Law]." (Romans 7:6)

Regarding what you said about updating the commandments according to our times, that is not necessary because:

"In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets." (Jesus in Matthew 7:12)

I just don't see any systematic way to decide which parts of the Bible to follow, & which to discard.
Apparently, many Xians are in the same boat (not an ark reference), which is why there is so much
disagreement among them.

 

[Crypto2015]

I just don't see any systematic way to decide which parts of the Bible to follow, & which to discard.
Apparently, many Xians are in the same boat (not an ark reference), which is why there is so much
disagreement among them.

I would suggest you to read the New Testament carefully and then the Old Testament under the light of what you have found in the New Testament. I am sure that by doing this you will get a very clear understanding of how our attitude towards the Law changed after Jesus' ministry. Regarding the Christian church, you will find people that identify as Christians teaching things that are in obvious contradiction to what Jesus has taught. Unfortunately, this happens. However, we cannot blame Christ for the actions and words of people who are acting against the teachings of Christ.

Christianity is about Christ. If you decide to read the New Testament focus on him and you'll get a clear understanding of how a faithful Christian should act.

 

[Revoltingest]

I would suggest you to read the New Testament carefully and then the Old Testament under the light of what you have found in the New Testament. I am sure that by doing this you will get a very clear understanding of how our attitude towards the Law changed after Jesus' ministry. Regarding the Christian church, you will find people that identify as Christians teaching things that are in obvious contradiction to what Jesus has taught. Unfortunately, this happens. However, we cannot blame Christ for the actions and words of people who are acting against the teachings of Christ.

Christianity is about Christ. If you decide to read the New Testament focus on him and you'll get a clear understanding of how a faithful Christian should act.

Given that Xians who've read the Bible still disagree,
I don't think my reading it would clarify things.

 

[Crypto2015]

Given that Xians who've read the Bible still disagree,
I don't think my reading it would clarify things.

In the vast majority of cases, disagreements between Christians arise from some Christians' unwillingness to take Christ's words at face value. All of us are convicted of sin when we read the Bible. When we are convicted of sin, we have two options, to adjust our lives to Christ's teachings or to try to adjust God's teachings to our sinful lives. The latter is the source of 99.9999% of all heresies. I am sure that if you read the New Testament carefully you'll get to know Christ and his message.