metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
So, do you believe Vatican II was and is evil?
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Pope Francis removes from Vatican doctrine office archbishop who is believed to have banned same-sex
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
So, please tell us how exactly you know what's in the Pope's head? Do you think God hates gays? Do you think Jesus hated Gays? If we all are ultimately made by God, do you think that God makes junk? Do you hate gays?
The Christian religion is a religion of hatred (not love). They hate Gays (among others). Anyone, like pope Francis, who sticks up for Gays, becomes an instant target of the hate-filled people that he tends. They might assume that anyone who supports Gays is Gay themselves.
This "guilt by help" association was also apparent in the deep south when people came to the rescue of Blacks, only to be called N-lovers, and thoroughly despised.
Hatred spreads. This is why it is so important not to hate in the first place.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
That and many Christians - particularly in the U.S. - presume Jesus to have been a lily white blue-eyed guy. Also, a lot of American Christians embrace a political ideology that's completely antithetical to the teachings and examples of Christ.
What a non-sequitur. Vatican II has nothing to do with this discussion.
What I do say is this. Should the Catholic Church renounce its teaching on the proper use of the sexual faculty in regards to the natural law, it would by logical necessity renounce its claim to indefectibility and prove the falsity of its religion. God does not contradict himself. A contradictory religion cannot be divinely revealed.
ppp
Well-Known Member
How can you tell that he is one of the greatest theologians of all time? What is the measure of that? I am genuinely curious.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
If god created homosexuals and then declared it "an unnatural sin", then he would be contradicting himself. But since he wouldn't we can dismiss the presumptions made about god by ancient primitive goat herders via the bible as incorrect. God isn't beholden to manmade books and religions.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
It very much does, as Catholic theology is not static. When Vatican II came about, many Catholics were terribly angry. including one of my neighbors. And it just wasn't the changes we saw at mass that changed.
Thus, it wasn't just the change there that was quite dynamic as the lessons from the Holocaust led to changes, especially to end the demonization of the Jewish people that had existed and been perpetrated for centuries. Ever sense we have had popes that had been very cooperative without being condescending, not only towards Jews but also Muslims and others. We no longer judge them, which was done a lot before!
There are many other changes that have taken place, such as with a more recent change in the Catechism whereas now capital punishment is no longer justifiable and also Pope Francis' encyclical on climate change.
And we also need to remember that the "good old days" really weren't so good at times, so the Church has made adjustments and will continue to do so.
Catholicism has a pillar that makes it unique.
That is free will.
And a consequence of free will is that not all sins are equal.
So therefore...I was raised Catholic and my catechist taught me that in God's eyes there are amendable sins and not amendable sins.
What two homosexuals do in the privacy of their own bedroom is nothing compared to what certain bankers do.
Certain bankers destroy countries, destroy families, led people to commit suicide.
All this focusing on something which is the speck of dust compared to the log in some people's eyes...is not that Catholic-like imho.
I know what he has said. If it doesn't come from his head, then I don't know what is in his head.
Which means that Pope thinks he is someone to judge. Which then means, Pope saying "Who am I to judge" is not convincing.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Since you wrote "Brave pope, seems to fear gay community, but not God...", then you have assumed as such, so no song & dance on your part changes that. For you to even make a statement like that is blatantly unethical. If you "don't know what was in his head" then you wouldn't have written what you did. It is never moral to assume the worse in a person.
Not the same thing at all. The archbishop deliberately misled, lied, when he attributed his own statement to that of the pope. Not a moral judgment but one of discipline.
What is obvious is that your church has always believed in improvement. It should never have claimed indefectibility I think and that this claim to perfect knowledge or speech was corruption. Its not needed in a revealed religion. NT writings say things like "We have this treasure in vessels of clay." If it was held in vessels of gold that would be different.
What I find both sad and indefensible is the mistaken, out of a chosen ignorance, position that Catholics who long for the 'good old days' don't or refuse to realize that the 'old days' did not begin with Trent but a thousand years prior to.
We would be stating that God was as ill-informed on sexuality as the 'goat herders.
Fortunately private revelations do not belong to the deposit of faith and Catholics nor required to believe them.
I think what you yearn for is the return of an exclusive Church and are unable to accept the Church as inclusive to those you think unacceptable to ever be members of the Kingdom. One either believes the Holy Spirit is a reality in guiding the Church through the centuries or just something to drag out when you agree. The Church is sanctified and guaranteed by God.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
That's fine, but please don't forget that Catholicism is hardly monolithic, plus we have the right of personal discernment. After all, it is Italian based.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
No we wouldn't because scripture wouldn't actually be speaking for god, unless you believe he was a ventriloquist dummy.
I fully believe that Scripture relates what God has inspired. The problem arises in the attempt to relate, pass on, that inspiration in a way understood by a particular culture at a particular time.