Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

[NIX]

Catholic redemption is much easier for non Catholics than it is for Catholics.

 

[Open_Minded]

Oh, now I'm relieved! I was worried that not believing in Heaven and Hell would send me to Hell.

Catholic redemption is much easier for non Catholics than it is for Catholics.

Nix - that's good to know. It means Jayell and InChrist will be redeemed for not believing Catholics are Christians; and they won't go to a Hell they DO believe in.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Catholic redemption is much easier for non Catholics than it is for Catholics.

I'd say it's quite similar to Mormon redemption and for any Universalist interpretation for redemption. At least from the Christian religion.

Some people would really prefer not to hang out in an eternity with other people they don't think are worthy, even if God is there the whole time.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

If I may be so bold (uneducated inquirer that I am), the Orthodox Church fully agrees with the Pope in this matter. Jesus didn't just redeem the believers. He redeemed EVERYTHING at the Cross and the Tomb--if only we would accept that redemption and continue being redeemed. The seeds are there, planted by God. We just have to water them.

For God so loved the WORLD, not just the believers. God wills that ALL be saved, not just the Christians. Jesus makes ALL things new, not just the Christians.

I find Pope Francis' message a beautiful way of keeping these truths in mind. The world has already been redeemed and transformed... We just need to continue transforming and redeeming it through the communion of love, humility, repentance and virtue. This is our calling, to take the world that God said was "very good," the world that we corrupted through our sins and passions, and transform it back to a "very good" state--and take it even beyond that. We'll need God, yes--but we also need each other, believers and non-believers alike. We are a microcosm of the entire universe. We better ourselves, we better the world around us, and vice-versa.

What you and Pope Francis say is quite true. The narrow interpretation Calvinist "By faith alone" has had it's day. Jesus sacrifice was all not just for people who believed in a particular way...At that moment, few, if any truly believed or even knew what was happening.
We are returning to a Christian message of God's love.
Anglicans like Orthodox and Catholics and many of the traditional Protestant denominations, also accept a close to universal understanding of God's love and forgiveness.

John 3:16 goes on to say whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM. The pope says whosoever does good (right) that's not the same thing, so you can't agrue 4 the pope here. A couple verse later it says, "Those who DO NOT BELIEVE stand condemned already." Nothing bout good deeds ( Isaiah tells it all )

I find your reading and reasoning sad, and so very far from a Christian understanding. However, I have heard it many times before and understand what you are saying, it is fortunate for you that it is not true.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Catholic redemption is much easier for non Catholics than it is for Catholics.

I have heard of Redemption...
But never the subset "Catholic" redemption.
No Church has any command over who God redeems.

Any reflection By Pope Francis about Redemption, It to offer us a better understanding of what God has always done through his l.ove for us all.


.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I must say I am shocked by many posts in this thread.

What happened to, "Judge not lest ye be judged"?

I am so glad it is not my job to judge others salvation.

 

[Erebus]

This is wonderful news for all of humanity.

I disagree, this is terrible news!

If the pope is correct I'm going to have to try harder to earn a front row seat in the Pit.

 

[dust1n]

I must say I am shocked by many posts in this thread.

What happened to, "Judge not lest ye be judged"?

I am so glad it is not my job to judge others salvation.

I find it hilarious that Protestants think they are 'truer Christians' then Catholics, even though Protestantism is only about 500 years old, while the Catholic church is like 1700 years old.

If anything, it's Protestants who are not Christians.

This is coming from an atheist, btw.


Other than that, I can only be happy that the world is becoming a little more tolerable for everyone.

 

[Open_Minded]

I find it hilarious that Protestants think they are 'truer Christians' then Catholics, even though Protestantism is only about 500 years old, while the Catholic church is like 1700 years old.

If anything, it's Protestants who are not Christians.

This is coming from an atheist, btw.


Other than that, I can only be happy that the world is becoming a little more tolerable for everyone.

I'm a Christian Contemplative (raised Catholic - but have participated in the Lutheran denomination for decades).

I'm reaching the point where I'm fed up with religion in general. 10-15 years ago I used to defend religion because it's done much good in the world. But... it is exhausting to see how people twist and turn Bible verses in order to allow for hate and intollerance and war.

I've become convinced - in watching the fundamentalists try to take over our political system - that religion is a weapon wielded by many to [FONT=&quot]subjugate many more.

It is possible to know the SACRED without the attachments of religion and all of its dogma. The older I get, the more inclined I am towards practicing quiet awareness of the SACRED ONE in ALL, through ALL, and at the foundation of ALL ....[/FONT]

 

[Reverend Rick]

I find it hilarious that Protestants think they are 'truer Christians' then Catholics, even though Protestantism is only about 500 years old, while the Catholic church is like 1700 years old.

If anything, it's Protestants who are not Christians.

This is coming from an atheist, btw.


Other than that, I can only be happy that the world is becoming a little more tolerable for everyone.

dust1n, I don't know how you can quote me and imply that I have ever said ANYTHING against Catholicism.

 

[Vouthon]

Catholic redemption is much easier for non Catholics than it is for Catholics.

Ha, that has been a topic of much discussion among Catholics for over a century now.

Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, addressed the topic back in 1964 when he was a young priest, theologian and expert taking part in the Second Vatican Council. Here are his thoughts that year on the matter:

In fact, in one homily long prior to his papacy, then-Fr. Joseph Ratzinger had answered from the Christian perspective precisely the question that Pope Francis’ homily raised (if less reverently) in some circles of skeptics yesterday: If non-believers can go to heaven, why bother with faith at all? As Ratzinger said in that 1964 homily, the question we struggle with is not whether God can save people outside the Church (for we know that he can). Rather:

The question that torments us is . . . why, if there are so many other ways to heaven and to salvation, should it still be demanded of us that we bear, day by day, the whole burden of ecclesiastical dogma and ecclesiastical ethics? . . .

If we are raising the question of the basis and meaning of our life as Christians . . . then this can easily conceal a sidelong glance at what we suppose to be the easier and more comfortable life of other people, who will “also” get to heaven.

We are too much like the workers taken on in the first hour whom the Lord talks about in his parable of the workers in the vineyard (Mt 20:1-6). When they realized that the day’s wage of one denarius could be much more easily earned, they could no longer see why they had sweated all day. . . .

But the parable is not there on account of those workers at that time; it is there for our sake. For in our raising questions about the “why” of Christianity, we are doing just what those workers did. We are assuming that spiritual “unemployment”—a life without faith or prayer—is more pleasant than spiritual service. Yet how do we know that?

We are staring at the trials of everyday Christianity and forgetting on that account that faith is not just a burden that weighs us down; it is at the same time a light that brings us counsel, gives us a path to follow, and gives us meaning. We are seeing in the Church only the exterior order that limits our freedom and thereby overlooking the fact that she is our spiritual home, which shields us, keeps us safe in life and in death. We are seeing only our own burden and forgetting that other people also have burdens, even if we know nothing of them.

And above all, what a strange attitude that actually is, when we no longer find Christian service worthwhile if the denarius of salvation may be obtained even without it! It seems as if we want to be rewarded, not just with our own salvation, but most especially with other people’s damnation—just like the workers hired in the first hour. That is very human, but the Lord’s parable is particularly meant to make us quite aware of how profoundly un-Christian it is at the same time. Anyone who looks on the loss of salvation for others as the condition, as it were, on which he serves Christ will in the end only be able to turn away grumbling, because that kind of reward is contrary to the loving-kindness of God.
​

Ratzinger (Benedict) explains above how un-Christian it is to wish salvation only for oneself at the exclusion of others of other religions.

 

[Ashoka]

I never understood how some religions can focus on what you believe, more than what you do. It boggles my mind. You could be a murderer and a thief and yet, if you believe the right thing, you're okay.

(And yes, there are some Christians who actually believe this. I know first hand. I grew up in it.)

 

[Vouthon]

I never understood how some religions can focus on what you believe, more than what you do. It boggles my mind. You could be a murderer and a thief and yet, if you believe the right thing, you're okay.

(And yes, there are some Christians who actually believe this. I know first hand. I grew up in it.)

Amen! :bow:

A Catholic on another forum I was on yesterday wrote this, which you might find interesting:

Jesus, by redeeming mankind, made individual salvation possible for each person.

We are redeemed, believer and non-believer, but to participate in the fruits of that redemption, we need to "work out our [personal] salvation in fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

Salvation is not automatic, nor just a matter of belief. ("I accepted Jesus as my Savior; therefore I'm saved.") Salvation is the individual's journey toward life in Christ, by which he consciously unites himself to Jesus in His person and His precepts. Each person's salvation is unique to that soul.

We each have the potential to share in the universality of Christ's redemption.

 

[Muffled]

Oh, now I'm relieved! I was worried that not believing in Heaven and Hell would send me to Hell.

I beleive ignorance is bliss doesn't work when you walk into quicksand.

 

[Muffled]

Pope likes M &Ms (More Members & More Money)

Saying that atheists can do good and accepting them as members are two different things but money is always welcome whether a person is a member or not.

 

[Muffled]

I never understood how some religions can focus on what you believe, more than what you do. It boggles my mind. You could be a murderer and a thief and yet, if you believe the right thing, you're okay.

(And yes, there are some Christians who actually believe this. I know first hand. I grew up in it.)

I believe understanding comes with belief.

I believe this is a misrepresentation. A person could have been a murderer and a thief in the past but receiving Jesus changes that. A person who says he has received Jesus then goes and steals or murders is not telling the truth.

I believe that believing the right thing will make everything well.

 

[Open_Minded]

I believe that believing the right thing will make everything well.

And who exactly is it that determines "the right thing"?????

Keeping in mind of course that ...

Buddhists could say Buddha
Muslims could say the Prophet
Confucians could say Confucius
Mormons could say Joseph Smith
Jehovah's Witnesses could say Charles Taze Russell ... etc.... ???????

 

[Ashoka]

I believe that believing the right thing will make everything well.

"The right thing" could be anything, good or bad. It can be a very slippery slope. In the Old Testament, believing that it was okay to kill non-believers was "the right thing to believe." If by right you mean goodness and kindness, then this is fine. If by right, you mean believing that group a is going to heaven and group b is going to hell for having different beliefs about God, to me, this is wrong.

Though I feel like I may have gone off topic with my post above, yet I think it could still somewhat be part of the topic; The Pope believes God is more interested in what people do, rather than what they believe, and this is a good start.

Pranams.

 

[Open_Minded]

Though I feel like I may have gone off topic with my post above, yet I think it could still somewhat be part of the topic; The Pope believes God is more interested in what people do, rather than what they believe, and this is a good start.

Pranams.

Shivoham - no you've not gone off topic. The reason I started this post is exactly this dynamic.

Within the realm of literalist religions ... believing "the right thing" has led to untold amounts of discrimination, violence, blood-shed and war against those who don't "believe the right thing".

The Pope's words are not only outreach to those who are not Catholic, but (more importantly in my mind) words from a leader to his followers. Words that challenge Catholics all over the world about this very dynamic ... of "believing the right thing" and how it contributes to discord within humanity.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

God transcends every thing including the churches that proclaim him.
He "Belongs" to no one Church.
Or one set of believers.
Every one and every thing is subject to his will.
Our Beliefs are not a criterion or measure of God's authority over us.