Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

[Ashoka]

Hogwarts isn't real?
My dreams are crushed!

It's only fake if you're a Muggle

 

[Jainarayan]

if the bible is truly god's word then it does prove itself to be true whether or not one chooses to accept such truth is another matter.

"if".

 

[LuisDantas]

Many churches today do simply tell people what they want to hear, but not those that teach and speak from the biblical scriptures. The Bible does not cater to human desire or flatter human nature and the focus is on serving God and others, not self.

That may be true in some sense, but does not seem to be making too much (or enough) of a difference in practice.

 

[NIX]

There was an article on Yahoo yesterday or the day before stating that the Vatican corrected the Pope's statement, and that atheists are still going to hell. It wasn't a very well written article- kind of sensationalized so I didn't go out of my way to find this thread and post it.

 

[Copernicus]

Well, it remains to be seen how Pope Francis plays this in the future. Ex-Pope Benedict is still out there and an inspiration for more conservative points of view. He didn't seem to want to give up all the perks, but he was tired of the responsibilities. I wonder if there is a bit of a power struggle going on now. I would have liked to see a kinder, gentler RCC emerge with this new pope, but time will tell.

 

[Open_Minded]

Well, it remains to be seen how Pope Francis plays this in the future. Ex-Pope Benedict is still out there and an inspiration for more conservative points of view. He didn't seem to want to give up all the perks, but he was tired of the responsibilities. I wonder if there is a bit of a power struggle going on now. I would have liked to see a kinder, gentler RCC emerge with this new pope, but time will tell.

There is an internal power struggle going on ... and it's not going to end anytime soon. 2000 years of entrenched history does not disappear overnight.

The way non-Catholics are treated by the church is just one issue. There are many more in the mix as well.

Although I don't expect to see much change, this new Pope is refreshing (in his stance towards non-Catholics). But - I'm with you - "it remains to be seen how Pope Francis plays this in the future"....

 

[Windwalker]

Many churches today do simply tell people what they want to hear, but not those that teach and speak from the biblical scriptures. The Bible does not cater to human desire or flatter human nature and the focus is on serving God and others, not self.

Have you ever stopped to realize that people also simply hear what they want to hear? That what they read in the Bible, is being done through the filters of their own desires, the same way they hear words of truth in ways less than what was being communicated?

How is one to tell the difference? Certainly not by arguing who has the right interpretation by analyzing words. They already did that and came to a different point of view. There must be something else that serves as the gauge of the value of one's understandings? What is that measure? Anyone?

 

[Open_Minded]

There must be something else that serves as the gauge of the value of one's understandings? What is that measure? Anyone?

OH ... :bounce OH...:bounce OH ..... :bounce I know teacher... I know .. ... the measuer is... "do onto others as you would have them do onto you".... Is that it ?????

Or as Pope Francis said:

"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Even the atheists? But how will they know good, father, without the fundamental moral compass of the Catholic Church?

 

[Alceste]

Even the atheists? But how will they know good, father, without the fundamental moral compass of the Catholic Church?

I haven't read the whole thread, I've just read the pope's statement. The gist of it is that if we're good people we're actually secret Christians. Maybe so secret we aren't even aware of it ourselves. But Jesus knows.

 

[Open_Minded]

.... The gist of it is that if we're good people we're actually secret Christians. Maybe so secret we aren't even aware of it ourselves. But Jesus knows.

I wonder if it's possible to be a secret Buddhist, or a secret Hindu, or a secret Muslim, or a secret Taoist, or a secret whatever??? So secret we don't even know it ourselves, but Buddha knows it, or the Hindu Great Gods know it, or Allah knows it, or Yu-huang knows it (but we don't) ...

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I haven't read the whole thread, I've just read the pope's statement. The gist of it is that if we're good people we're actually secret Christians. Maybe so secret we aren't even aware of it ourselves. But Jesus knows.

I read it...I just started typing the conversation in my head. Lessee...it keeps going a bit.

------------------------

That's simple, my son. They can follow the golden rule. Do unto others...even if they are atheists, this simple truth can allow them to know God.

Isn't that Confucianism?

No, it's Christian

Hang on...it's a Maat principle I think, father...

No, it's Christian

It's that Indian thing...umm...dharma

No, it's Christian

Isn't it just humanism?

No, it's Christian. Do you understand now, my son?

Yes, father. Everyone in the whole world who has morals is a secret Christian, and they have been around even before Christ himself. It is a true miracle.

 

[Open_Minded]

Even the atheists? But how will they know good, father, without the fundamental moral compass of the Catholic Church?

Indeed - an excellent question. Let's query a bit further shall we.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, for this is the law and the prophets.
Christianity ~ Matthew 7:12, Luke 6:31

What is hurtful to yourself do not to your fellow man. That is the whole of The Torah and the remainder is but commentary.
Judaism ~ Shabbath (also Rabbi Hillel)

Do unto all men as you would they should unto you, and reject for others what you would reject for yourself.
Islam ~ Mishkat-el-Masabih

Hurt not others with that which pains yourself.
Buddhism ~ Udanavarga 5.8

Tzu Kung asked: "Is there any one principle upon which one’s whole life may proceed?" Confucius replied: "Is not Reciprocity such a principle?- what you do not yourself desire, do not put before others."
Confucianism ~ Analects 15.23

This is the sum of all true righteousness - Treat others, as thou wouldst thyself be treated.
Do nothing to thy neighbor, which hereafter Thou wouldst not have thy neighbor do to thee.
Hinduism ~ Mahabharata (Ganguli, Book 13 CXIII)

Treat others as thou wouldst be treated thyself.
Sikhism ~ Guru Angad (Macauliffe vol 2, p.29)

A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated.
Jainism ~ Sutrakritanga Sutra 1.11.33

Regard your neighbor’s gain as your own gain; and regard your neighbor’s loss as your own loss, even as though you were in their place.
Taoism ~ Tai-Shang Kan-Ying Pien

Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee.
Bahá'í ~ Bahá'ulláh

I wonder how so many other religions and so many other cultures know how to do good? I wonder why there is some form of the golden rule in all human cultures and religions??? (scratching head)

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Indeed - an excellent question. Let's query a bit further shall we.

I wonder how so many other religions and so many other cultures know how to do good? I wonder why there is some form of the golden rule in all human cultures and religions??? (scratching head)

If I say it's a basic tenet of humanity, do I win a cracker?

 

[Open_Minded]

If I say it's a basic tenet of humanity, do I win a cracker?

Well Windwalker started this little object lesson

How is one to tell the difference? Certainly not by arguing who has the right interpretation by analyzing words. They already did that and came to a different point of view. There must be something else that serves as the gauge of the value of one's understandings? What is that measure? Anyone?

- so he has to answer your question. But, my guess is he'd move you to the front of the class and you could be "teacher's pet" for a day.

 

[InChrist]

Have you ever stopped to realize that people also simply hear what they want to hear? That what they read in the Bible, is being done through the filters of their own desires, the same way they hear words of truth in ways less than what was being communicated?

How is one to tell the difference? Certainly not by arguing who has the right interpretation by analyzing words. They already did that and came to a different point of view. There must be something else that serves as the gauge of the value of one's understandings? What is that measure? Anyone?

That is the problem, people hear what they want to hear...For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers...
2 Timothy 4:3... Instead of accepting what God has said in His word.

One is to tell the difference and discern the truth by having an attitude which is willing to seek and submit to what God says. His will be done, not mine. The Bible and the leading and conviction of the Holy Spirit is the gauge.

 

[Copernicus]

Have you ever stopped to realize that people also simply hear what they want to hear? That what they read in the Bible, is being done through the filters of their own desires, the same way they hear words of truth in ways less than what was being communicated?

How is one to tell the difference? Certainly not by arguing who has the right interpretation by analyzing words. They already did that and came to a different point of view. There must be something else that serves as the gauge of the value of one's understandings? What is that measure? Anyone?

Well, I was told by my doctor a few years ago that I had cancer. I didn't want to hear it, but I did. So I had another doctor examine the evidence and confirm it, me being the unbelieving skeptic that I am. So I proclaimed faith in the doctors, who imposed a penance on me that I be rendered unconscious and opened up and the demon cancer exorcised. And so it came to be. And I was cured.

So the answer has to be faith. I had faith in my doctors, and they performed a miracle on me that I cannot deny. I am cancer-free. Praise Hippocrates!

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Vatican Confirms Atheists Still Going To Hell, Despite Pope Francis Remarks

 

[Vouthon]

Vatican Confirms Atheists Still Going To Hell, Despite Pope Francis Remarks

The Vatican hasn't said anything. A priest who works on a low-key Vatican council for social media called Fr. Rosica said this, and his comments were misunderstood by the media because he cloaked them in theological garb. I explained earlier that the Catholic Church recognises the ability for atheists to receive salvation. I quoted from numerous official documents.

We discussed Fr. Rosica (the man spoken of in the article above) earlier in the thread. If you check back you will see us discussing that already. Old hat my friend

 

[Windwalker]

Have you ever stopped to realize that people also simply hear what they want to hear? That what they read in the Bible, is being done through the filters of their own desires, the same way they hear words of truth in ways less than what was being communicated?

How is one to tell the difference? Certainly not by arguing who has the right interpretation by analyzing words. They already did that and came to a different point of view. There must be something else that serves as the gauge of the value of one's understandings? What is that measure? Anyone?

That is the problem, people hear what they want to hear...For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers...
2 Timothy 4:3... Instead of accepting what God has said in His word.

But I have already pointed out above that they are "accepting what God has said in His word". They just hear it they way they hear it, just as you hear it the way you hear it. Which leaves us with need to guage the value of what they believe by other means, not by you arguing they aren't reading it right!

You still don't see this do you? You still think what you read and interpret is "correct", that this reading is "God's word", and you don't play any role in this. That you can read utterly unbiased (something no human alive can do, mind you). So you cannot, say they aren't reading what "God says". They are, just as much as you are. But what, again, what is the measure of the value of how they read? That really is the question. It certainly isn't "correct reading". That's impossible.

What measure then? How shall you know them by, since it's not by how they interpret the Bible? What measure?

One is to tell the difference and discern the truth by having an attitude which is willing to seek and submit to what God says.

And how is that measured? By what visible sign? By their church attendance? By their zealotry? By how much they fast and pray? By how many people they yell at on the street corner in Jesus' name?

Or is it something that crosses all boundaries? Something that has transcends culture, and language, and belief? Something to do with Spirit...?

His will be done, not mine. The Bible and the leading and conviction of the Holy Spirit is the gauge.

It can't have to do with the Bible judging, since no two people read it the same. It can't be some person reading it, because no person can read it free from their own biases, you included. So you can't say the Bible judges. It requires a person to read it, and no person is free from error. What then?

Conviction of the Holy Spirit? How does that work? In you? Through your feelings and judgment of others? Maybe it's something much easier. Maybe it's something I've said many times, and you have not heard it yet.

The Bible does tell you how. Funny you haven't cited it yet.