Pope Francis: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven

[LuisDantas]

One must also notice how Pope Francis' stance closely resembles Pure Land Buddhism's.

 

[George-ananda]

Conservatives are now asking: Is the Pope Catholic?

 

[Cephus]

I don't think so. It looks a lot more like political division to me.

So much for Francis healing the great divide.

 

[LuisDantas]

So much for Francis healing the great divide.

Uh? It seems to me that on the contrary, he is exactly working at healing it.

Did you expect an overnight change?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

This doctrine is shared by all protestants of a universalist faith.
Which would include most Anglicans.
But might exclude most fundamentalists churches in the USA.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Universal Salvation and the Roman Catholic Church

A Summary and Some Resources


The doctrine of universal salvation (also known as Apokatastasis or Apocatastasis) has usually been considered through the centuries to be heterodox but has become orthodox. It was maintained by the Second Vatican Council and by Pope John Paul II and it is promoted in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church and in the post-Vatican II liturgy.

From Traditional Catholic Counter-Revolution and the Aggiornamento of the Roman Catholic Church

It seems universal salvation is a very old understanding and was confirmed as orthodox in vatican 2
It could be Pope Francis is firming up on this.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Awesome! I don't even need to bother with the whole Pascal's Wager thing now.

 

[LuisDantas]

Awesome! I don't even need to bother with the whole Pascal's Wager thing now.

Neither you nor anyone else. Of course, you knew that already..

 

[Cephus]

Uh? It seems to me that on the contrary, he is exactly working at healing it.

Did you expect an overnight change?

No, of course not, but by saying things that are against traditional Catholic beliefs, then having the rest of the church come behind him saying "he doesn't know what he's talking about" doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. Is the church going to go with what he says, or is he going to go with what they say? There seems to be a power struggle going on.

 

[biased]

Francis's support of liberation theology gives me hope.

Liberation theology is Marxist in nature. The Catholic Church is vehemently anti-Marxist. You make the connections

 

[LuisDantas]

No, of course not, but by saying things that are against traditional Catholic beliefs, then having the rest of the church come behind him saying "he doesn't know what he's talking about" doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.

If you say so. I beg to differ.

Is the church going to go with what he says, or is he going to go with what they say? There seems to be a power struggle going on.

Of course there is. There is always.

 

[Quiddity]

I've learned to expect the media to butcher whatever the Vatican says and anyone wishing to even remotely grasp theological questions such as salvation would know better then to expect a short answer or even some clarity in one sitting. The response letter can be found here:

Pope Francis' Letter to the Founder of "La Repubblica" Italian Newspaper | ZENIT - The World Seen From Rome

 

[mimpibird39]

This guy. Pope Francis is making me want to be a Catholic again.

 

[danieldemol]

I reckon it is a good call, and I think this pope is one of the better ones.

 

[Astravalon]

This guy. Pope Francis is making me want to be a Catholic again.

I was raised Roman Catholic and I have to admit if it were absolutely clear that it taught universal salvation universally, I'd be somewhat tempted to go back as well. :yes:

The only thing is that there's still the whole 'mortal' sin thing (even missing church on Sunday falls into that category in some instances, if I'm not mistaken). Dying in a state of 'mortal' sin is, according to Catholicism, a ticket to hell. But, if there's no danger of hell in the RC paradigm, then I wonder where that leaves the 'mortal' sin issue.


-

 

[fantome profane]

So what exactly would one have to to to guarantee that they won't end up in heaven? :help:

 

[Cephus]

So what exactly would one have to to to guarantee that they won't end up in heaven? :help:

Someone would have to demonstrate that there's any such place first. It's like asking how one could guarantee they won't end up in Valhalla.

 

[fantome profane]

Someone would have to demonstrate that there's any such place first. It's like asking how one could guarantee they won't end up in Valhalla.

True, but I was wondering about this from the Pope's point of view. If I am a good person who does not want to go to heaven, will I still end up being imprisoned there for all eternity?

 

[Vouthon]

So what exactly would one have to to to guarantee that they won't end up in heaven? :help:

Hypothetically speaking, if they disobey the dictates of their own conscience and die with serious violations of that conscience, without any attempt or desire to open themselves to grace, which is simply to be true to themselves as human beings. We have an innate sense of what is true and good. Even then, the mercy of God knows no bounds, since they may have an implicit desire for good that is unrecognized on the surface even by themselves but is known to God, who is closer to us than we are to ourselves and knows our most hidden secrets. Who knows? It is not for us to judge. Every man or woman must work out his/her own salvation in the journey of faith, whether that faith be implicit, in the case of a righteous atheist or agnostic joined to the church in spirit if not in fact, or explicit as in those within the corporeal body of the church.

And yes, atheists can have implicit faith:

"...Faith is so innate a good thing, it can be found even in those who do not yet believe in God..."

- Evagrius Ponticus (345–399 AD), Early Desert Father, The Praktikos

"...The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation..."

- Blessed Pope John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio (1990)

 

[LuisDantas]

True, but I was wondering about this from the Pope's point of view. If I am a good person who does not want to go to heaven, will I still end up being imprisoned there for all eternity?

A fair question, but one with an obvious answer all the same.

Unless we allow for the possibility of an unfair God, I suppose.