pope made homophobic slur

[IndigoChild5559]

I don't see the "its a sin" = homophobe.

I don't think so either. But it certainly is what the LGBT community says.

Its usually "its a sin and therefore discrimination is OK".

I agree.

 

[Argentbear]

I don't think so either. But it certainly is what the LGBT community says.

I agree.

I have never heard that as a stand alone, there is always a second part like "It's an abomination therefor it is OK to dehumanize them."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Consider yourself very, very lucky. What I hear quite often from the LGBT community is that anyone who thinks it is a sin is a homophobe, even if they do acts of great kindness towards gays such as helping those with HIV.

That's not the same as not being interested in sex with the same sex.
And I agree teaching it is sin is harmful. It's like being gay is like shooting up. That is destructive in itself so it's ok to have strong objections to it. Being gay doesn't and thus we must weigh the real world consequences of teaching it's a sin.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's not the same as not being interested in sex with the same sex.
And I agree teaching it is sin is harmful. It's like being gay is like shooting up. That is destructive in itself so it's ok to have strong objections to it. Being gay doesn't and thus we must weigh the real world consequences of teaching it's a sin.

I think we need to make a distinction here between inclination and action. Christians (and others) who say homosexual sex is a sin are not demonizing anyone for their same sex attraction. It is only when the person acts on it that, for these folks, it becomes sin. Let me give you a couple of examples.

A person might have a terrible compulsion to steal. They clearly are suffering from a form of OCD, and need our sympathy and help. But if they act on that compulsion and shoplift, they go to jail.

A person might have a sexual attraction to young children. Clearly, their brain is broken -- they do not choose these urges, but rather, suffer from them. However, the moment they act on those urges, they absolutely go to jail, and throw away the key.

Now you may personally believe there is nothing wrong with gay sex. Fine. That's not the question. The question is whether someone can say homosexual sex is a sin an not be a homophobe. Asking a gay guy or lesbian to be celibate is no more cruel or harming to them than asking a pedo not to diddle little kids. No one has ever died from lack of sex.

I'm not giving these examples because I put homosexuality on par with pedophilia, but because by taking the logic to the extreme, it is better understood.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Christians (and others) who say homosexual sex is a sin are not demonizing anyone for their same sex attraction.

This is why I say we must evaluate the results of what happens when these things are taught. I said consequences in the last post, which isn't the proper objective term to evaluate things and use, however I do believe it's an overall net harm as this is being weighed against the harms of homosexuality against the harms lf teaching its inherently sinful. It isn't saying it's wrong like a regular human taboo, it's declaring that god finds it offensive. The Bible supports this former statement numerous times.

A person might have a terrible compulsion to steal. They clearly are suffering from a form of OCD, and need our sympathy and help. But if they act on that compulsion and shoplift, they go to jail.

Yes. We can explain from very many perspectives and schools of thought why theft is wrong. It isn't inherently wrong, but the arguments and evidence supporting the claim it is wrong.
OCD is a disorder that can be disruptive to one's life. It's also why we must be aware of the difference between theft for survival and need, theft for want and thrills, amd theft due to an illness. Two of these groups need help and compassion. It's why being tough on crime does a net harm to society.
These examples also have nothing to do with homosexuality.

Asking a gay guy or lesbian to be celibate is no more cruel or harming to them than asking a pedo not to diddle little kids. No one has ever died from lack of sex.

Not really. The pedophile does harm. The homosexuals do not. The pedophile too needs help, compassion and understanding when coping with their uniquely terrible situation. They can't act on it. Kids (in regards to pedophilia) are ready for things ranging from about how there are appropriate and inappropriate places to touch people up to dating, not sex. It's not unusual for someone to be damaged for life when sexually abused for life as a child.
Homosexuality causes none of this.

Now you may personally believe there is nothing wrong with gay sex. Fine. That's not the question. The question is whether someone can say homosexual sex is a sin an not be a homophobe.

Which is why I saw we must base this on the results of saying it's a sin. I can't see there being anyway it doesn't cause more harm than good.

I'm not giving these examples because I put homosexuality on par with pedophilia, but because by taking the logic to the extreme, it is better understood.

Understood.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Not really. The pedophile does harm. The homosexuals do not.

That is a great argument for why you don't find homosexuality immoral. But it is not an argument that expecting celibacy is never okay.

The overall ethic is that a committed marriage, all other factors being equal, creates the most stable and secure environment for the raising of children. It also protects people from those who want to sexually exploit them. So, in this view, sex is only acceptable within a marriage between a man and a woman. From one night stands, to shacking up, to adultery, to pedophilia... sexual acts outside of marriage are all forbidden.

Religious folks tend to believe that the most important thing is what is best for the community. But not everyone feels that way. There are those who would say that the liberty and well being of the individual is the most important thing. It is this latter group that is accepting of sex outside of marriage.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The overall ethic is that a committed marriage, all other factors being equal, creates the most stable and secure environment for the raising of children. It also protects people from those who want to sexually exploit them. So, in this view, sex is only acceptable within a marriage between a man and a woman. From one night stands, to shacking up, to adultery, to pedophilia... sexual acts outside of marriage are all forbidden.

That is mere belief as anthropology shows us it's not really true. We have practiced many forms of what wed call marriage or formal pairings, some of them being brief before another partner is chosen.
As for raising kids, it takes stability and ideally a bunch of people. When we say it takes a village, traditionally that sort of was how kids were raised. The community or what we'd call extended family would regularly take responsibility for raising children.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That is mere belief as anthropology shows us it's not really true. We have practiced many forms of what wed call marriage or formal pairings, some of them being brief before another partner is chosen.
As for raising kids, it takes stability and ideally a bunch of people. When we say it takes a village, traditionally that sort of was how kids were raised. The community or what we'd call extended family would regularly take responsibility for raising children.

You can have your own opinion of course. I'm not really here to change your mind. Only to help you understand what is going on with "the other side."

I agree that the extended family is superior to the nuclear family. But its still a family united by blood and marriage.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Only to help you understand what is going on with "the other side."

I get what's going on with the other side. I just don't believe, all things considered, it's as benign a belief as they claim.

agree that the extended family is superior to the nuclear family. But its still a family united by blood and marriage.

Yes, the nuclear family is a tragedy of a family model because we're so distanced from those we have relied on before we were our modern humanoid species.
However some societies have been sexually open enough that the dad is whoever steps up to the plate.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I get what's going on with the other side. I just don't believe, all things considered, it's as benign a belief as they claim.

It is a situation where no matter what you do, someone is going to get hurt. Some people such as yourself are willing to damage society for the sake of the wellbeing of the individual. Most religious are the reverse, willing to sacrifice the individual for the well being of the community.

Yes, the nuclear family is a tragedy of a family model because we're so distanced from those we have relied on before we were our modern humanoid species.

I agree. When I had my babies, we lived with my parents. My kids had a much better quality of life solely because my parents helped care for them, and were there to offer advice when I felt lost. Having young parents means having someone with the energy to deal with the overload. Having older grandparents means having access to their wisdom and assistance.

However some societies have been sexually open

Like Samoa? You should know that Margaret Mead doctored her results. She chose not to include the many anecdotes that girls were telling, nor did she bother mentioning that free sex was the major cause of infanticide.

enough that the dad is whoever steps up to the plate.

If you are talking about a father being the man who loves and cares for a child and raises it as his own, rather than the sperm donor, I agree with you. My brother adopted a little girl, and no one could have loved her more. If you are talking about single moms who go through a stream of boyfriends, that is absolutely damaging to kids. It is reckless and hurtful to have them constantly bond with people who later leave them.

 

[Argentbear]

I think we need to make a distinction here between inclination and action. Christians (and others) who say homosexual sex is a sin are not demonizing anyone for their same sex attraction. It is only when the person acts on it that, for these folks, it becomes sin. Let me give you a couple of examples.

A person might have a terrible compulsion to steal. They clearly are suffering from a form of OCD, and need our sympathy and help. But if they act on that compulsion and shoplift, they go to jail.

the orientation you are born with is not a crime or a mental illness.

When you compare being gay to criminal activity or mental illness you are demonizing homosexuals

A person might have a sexual attraction to young children. Clearly, their brain is broken -- they do not choose these urges, but rather, suffer from them. However, the moment they act on those urges, they absolutely go to jail, and throw away the key.

Comparing homosexuals to pedophile is a common theme among homophobic hate groups it is a sick and hateful thing to do. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Now you may personally believe there is nothing wrong with gay sex. Fine. That's not the question. The question is whether someone can say homosexual sex is a sin an not be a homophobe. Asking a gay guy or lesbian to be celibate is no more cruel or harming to them than asking a pedo not to diddle little kids. No one has ever died from lack of sex.

Do I really need to point out the bigotry of this?

I'm not giving these examples because I put homosexuality on par with pedophilia, but because by taking the logic to the extreme, it is better understood.

There is no logic to hate and no excuse for it.

 

[Argentbear]

It is a situation where no matter what you do, someone is going to get hurt. Some people such as yourself are willing to damage society for the sake of the wellbeing of the individual. Most religious are the reverse, willing to sacrifice the individual for the well being of the community.

What damage to society?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

the orientation you are born with is not a crime or a mental illness.

I didn't say it was.

I realize this is a tangent, but I just want us to have an honest relationship. Presently, it is common for one group of people to believe being gay is genetic. Yet studies with identical twins show that you an have a twin who is gay while the other twin is straight.

The other group thinks it is chosen. This is a mistake as well. Like so very many human traits, it has many factors. Genetics is one of them but not the only one. Epigenetics and womb environment are also factors, and quite often our environment has an impact as well. What the "you chose it" group doesn't understand, is that just because things like a trauma can intensify an underlying inclination, that doesn't mean the person has chosen their reaction. I've known women who have become Lesbian after being raped. There is no "choice" involved there.

Mental illness is a mental state that causes dysfunction. Homosexuality does not cause dysfunction.

When you compare being gay to criminal activity or mental illness you are demonizing homosexuals

Oh hardly. i think you missed what my link was. I was not in any way shape size or form suggesting that homosexuality is either a crime or a mental illness. I gave the examples I gave because they are also instances where the problem is not in the unchosen inclination, but in the action. In fact, I explicitly remarked that I did not put homosexuality on par with pedophilia. You must have missed that remark.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What damage to society?

Go back and read I wrote. I'm not sure how many posts ago it was, but I discussed the whole reasoning behind the no sex outside of marriage view.

 

[Viker]

I don't believe in the religious concept of sin. When people equivocate my identity and preference with a condemnable negative I take great issue. Especially when they want there to be legislation against it. Often times, hating the sin is hating the sinner. Especially when there is nothing negative involved. The Bible is wrong about my identity and sexuality. It's that simple. It's wrong in a lot of places about a lot of things. Maybe it's just terrible misinterpretations. People wrote it. What else could we expect?

People are free to disagree. People are not free to harm me or harass me about it. I'm not a sinner or evil for those things. Not in my book. My book is the only valid and authoritive source for me. It's written within me.

 

[Argentbear]

I didn't say it was.

you just did

I realize this is a tangent, but I just want us to have an honest relationship. Presently, it is common for one group of people to believe being gay is genetic. Yet studies with identical twins show that you an have a twin who is gay while the other twin is straight.

Please educate yourself on the basic principles of genetics. Identical twins are not identical people. Many genetic traits differ in identical twins. the rate of both twins having the same genetic trait is called coherence. Eye color has a 98% meaning for every pair of identical twins two pairs on average will have different eye color.
other genetic rates in identical twins:
Left handed is 80%
Type 1 diabetes is 32%
Rheumatoid arthritis 12%
Ankylosing spondylitis 63%
Myasthenia gravis 40%
Multiple sclerosis 30%
The rates of identical twins both being homosexual is around 60% meaning it has a better coherence than most genetic traits.

The other group thinks it is chosen. This is a mistake as well. Like so very many human traits, it has many factors. Genetics is one of them but not the only one. Epigenetics and womb environment are also factors, and quite often our environment has an impact as well. What the "you chose it" group doesn't understand, is that just because things like a trauma can intensify an underlying inclination,

Evidence?

that doesn't mean the person has chosen their reaction. I've known women who have become Lesbian after being raped. There is no "choice" involved there.

I'm sure she had pizza at some point to so why not say the pizza made her a lesbian?

Mental illness is a mental state that causes dysfunction. Homosexuality does not cause dysfunction.

and yet you bring up kleptomania

Oh hardly. i think you missed what my link was. I was not in any way shape size or form suggesting that homosexuality is either a crime or a mental illness. I gave the examples I gave because they are also instances where the problem is not in the unchosen inclination, but in the action. In fact, I explicitly remarked that I did not put homosexuality on par with pedophilia. You must have missed that remark.

you actively compare the two, you must not have noticed that you did so.

 

[Argentbear]

Go back and read I wrote. I'm not sure how many posts ago it was, but I discussed the whole reasoning behind the no sex outside of marriage view.

and what has that got to do with homosexuals?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It is a situation where no matter what you do, someone is going to get hurt. Some people such as yourself are willing to damage society for the sake of the wellbeing of the individual. Most religious are the reverse, willing to sacrifice the individual for the well being of the community.

I believe this is both society and the individual, a situation where we can't separate the two as what society is teaching effects the individuals on all ends.
And there is no damage to society by believing some beliefs are based in prejudice. Why should people sacrifice over a victimless "crime" for a society that punishes amd judges them for something that isn't harming society.
It also must be shown society actually is better off with prohibitions against gay sex. I don't think we'll find thats the case. It must also be demonstrated society is damaged by allowing it. I don't think we'll find this one either.

If you are talking about a father being the man who loves and cares for a child and raises it as his own, rather than the sperm donor, I agree with you.

I said nothing of sperm donors. It's unfortunate it went that direction as I was discussing the norms of other cultures that have added to the variety and spice of life.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

you just did

Please educate yourself on the basic principles of genetics. Identical twins are not identical people. Many genetic traits differ in identical twins. the rate of both twins having the same genetic trait is called coherence. Eye color has a 98% meaning for every pair of identical twins two pairs on average will have different eye color.

Identical twins share the same genetics, with the rare exception of mutation during the split. What is far more common is environmental factors turning genes on and off. It's called epigenetics. The environment can be anything from a difference in position in the womb, to trauma that occurs in one's life.

you actively compare the two, you must not have noticed that you did so.

I can compare a flat tire on a bicycle to flat tire on my car, even though the car flat is much more serious.
I can compare burning your dinner to burning down the kitchen, and still understand that they are unequal.

I'm only going to repeat this one more time. If you can't understand it, that's on you:

1. The comparison was between things that are inclinations/compulsion where it is acceptable to have the inclination, but not acceptable to act on it.

2. Anticipating that you would try to mangle it, I made sure to include a clarifying comment that I absolutely do not put homosexuality on par with pedophilia.

That means all your attempts to attack me for saying what I clearly did not say, are only hurting you. Take your strawman home with you.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What damage to society?

You are welcome to read my answer in my previous posts. See:
What do different religions teach about casual sex?
and

pope made homophobic slur

I don't see the "its a sin" = homophobe. I don't think so either. But it certainly is what the LGBT community says. Its usually "its a sin and therefore discrimination is OK". I agree.

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