Pope makes eejits of the Church again.

[Wandered Off]

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Please try to limit the subject of discussion and debate to policies and statements. This thread is not intended as an opportunity to bash a particular church, denomination, or its membership.

 

[Magic Man]

The homosexual act is not up for judgement, it is not allowed...

...according to your morality and the Bible.

 

[Heneni]

You realized that you just passed judgement on homosexuality, don't you

? :sarcastic

Incorrect. The verdict has already been decided. I cannot judge...god has already done that...and i believe he said.

Maybe it would be better if they left the pronouncements of verdicts up to God and accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgement on disputable matters... I think I read that somewhere once.

I dont see any disputable matter here. Sexual immorality is a no go..I would think the bible is literally STUFFED with evidence to support it.

There is two ways to go about this...


1. believe that bible is right and live accordingly
2. engage in sexual immorality and see what happens when your brought before the JUDGE?

I can tell you know the bible...

Weak faith.....

Are you saying that homosexuals have weak faith, and therefore we must refrain from admonishing them to not engage in homosexual acts?

Lets take ALL of us out of the equation here. Lets put homosexual act and god in the same room. What do you think will be his response? Do you think he will consider it holy? Right? Pure? Commendable? Condusive to healty spiritual growth? Or do you think he might wonder why people are using their bodies for something it wasnt designed for? No seriously, and im sorry if this offends anybody, but putting the old spanner in the waste disposal unit, has never seemed quite right to me.

Put a man who is having sex with another women he is not married to infront of god...and ask yourself...what will be the response?

Our bedrooms are not hidden from his view.


I dont think that any amount of homosexual acts, adultery, fornication or any of the likes, will phase us even though in reality it happens in full view of god the JUDGE....unless we have descided to believe the judges verdict.


Heneni.

 

[Autodidact]

Furthermore, the sun revolves around the earth, not vice versa, and the Pope is infallible.

 

[Heneni]

...according to your morality and the Bible.

Ok, well anyway...this is not exactly what this thread is about. But perhaps in a few sentences, you might explain to me, according to WHO do you believe it is right?

Heneni

 

[Magic Man]

Ok, well anyway...this is not exactly what this thread is about. But perhaps in a few sentences, you might explain to me, according to WHO do you believe it is right?

Heneni

According to who do I believe what is right? Homosexual acts? According to anyone who is reasonable. Actually, this is exactly what this thread is about. The pope made a declaration about homosexuals, and we're calling him out for it. You're defending him.

 

[Sunstone]

It's absurd that anyone would be condemning homosexuals in this day and age and claiming that homosexual sex will lead to the destruction of civilization or the human race. That is just stupid. There's no other word for it.

 

[Mister Emu]

I don't really see what the hub-bub is about... I mean did anyone here not know what the Pope's stance on these issues was? Was this a suprise?

All he said is that we can't ignore human issues, and we all already know the Vatican's stance on those...

 

[Sunstone]

I don't really see what the hub-bub is about... I mean did anyone here not know what the Pope's stance on these issues was? Was this a suprise?

All he said is that we can't ignore human issues, and we all already know the Vatican's stance on those...

Good point. But I don't find his pronouncements surprising -- I find them affronts to reason and evidence.

 

[Magic Man]

That is just stupid. There's no other word for it.

Yes, there are. I won't go into them here, but there are plenty of other words I'd use.

 

[Heneni]

According to who do I believe what is right? Homosexual acts? According to anyone who is reasonable. Actually, this is exactly what this thread is about. The pope made a declaration about homosexuals, and we're calling him out for it. You're defending him.

Mans judgement of what is right and what is wrong means they set themselves up as judges. Therefore compiling a human moral law.

The only way to be a judge and be human...is to learn from the judge himself. Its not hard. The law is written...the verdict is out. So to be a good judge means you too believe that what god says is wrong is wrong, and what god says is right is right.

If I let man be the judge between what is morally right and what is morally wrong...it wont hold up in the court of gods law...and when he judges, its not taking into account what men have decided is moral or not...it only takes into account what he has already judged as right and wrong.

To be a good judge, you cant break the law yourself. So if man in any shape form or fashion break their own moral codes, they become quilty as charged. They make their own laws and break them.

The only way to be sure that you will be judged fairly, is to not have a judge that breaks the law. But you cant change to law to suit you either. Men are unfair...always have been. They lobby for rights with the one hand, and take away rights with the other.

I think trusting man to be reasonable...is 'out there'. Since they find themselves in a universe they think happened by chance, and they find themselves unable to believe there is a god, they too are unaware that the judge is right at the door. Mankind can only get away with murder for so long....

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

It's absurd that anyone would be condemning homosexuals in this day and age and claiming that homosexual sex will lead to the destruction of civilization or the human race. That is just stupid. There's no other word for it.

Of course it will be stupid. ...unless it is true.

Once again...the pope is NOT condemning homosexuals...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

? :sarcastic

Incorrect. The verdict has already been decided. I cannot judge...god has already done that...and i believe he said.

You are the judge of whether the verdict that you think has been decided is applicable in this case.

I dont see any disputable matter here. Sexual immorality is a no go..I would think the bible is literally STUFFED with evidence to support it.

...all of which was torn away by Christ and nailed to the cross, the way I read the Bible. The Bible says that you died with Christ to sin and to the Law, and that if you now measure things by the yardstick of sin, you leave yourself rooted in death, even if you do not sin yourself.

There is two ways to go about this...


1. believe that bible is right and live accordingly
2. engage in sexual immorality and see what happens when your brought before the JUDGE?

Actually, there's a third way:

3. believe that "love God with all your heart" and "love one another as yourself" are the whole of the law and simply live by that.

I think I read that somewhere, too.

I can tell you know the bible...

Weak faith.....

Are you saying that homosexuals have weak faith, and therefore we must refrain from admonishing them to not engage in homosexual acts?

No, I'm not, but I'd wager that this is the view that some Christians take.

Lets take ALL of us out of the equation here. Lets put homosexual act and god in the same room. What do you think will be his response? Do you think he will consider it holy? Right? Pure? Commendable? Condusive to healty spiritual growth? Or do you think he might wonder why people are using their bodies for something it wasnt designed for? No seriously, and im sorry if this offends anybody, but putting the old spanner in the waste disposal unit, has never seemed quite right to me.

Judging by my reading of the Epistles, I get the impression that God would consider it just as unholy as the person performing it considers it to be.

If you have time, take a look at Romans 7. My interpretation of it is this:

- believers died with Christ to the law of sin.
- measuring one's actions against "sin/not sin" leaves one rooted in death, and thereby denies the saving grace of Christ.
- therefore, the only remaining yardstick to measure one's actions is love (which isn't dealt with in Romans 7, but I believe is addressed elsewhere in the Bible).
- believers have the choice to apply the law of sin or not, but if they do, they will be judged based on it and not based on Christ's sacrifice.

Put a man who is having sex with another women he is not married to infront of god...and ask yourself...what will be the response?

Our bedrooms are not hidden from his view.

I think that would depend whether he did it out of love or out of rebellion from God.

I dont think that any amount of homosexual acts, adultery, fornication or any of the likes, will phase us even though in reality it happens in full view of god the JUDGE....unless we have descided to believe the judges verdict.

Right... except I feel that one message of the Bible is that this verdict has been set aside by Christ, and it's our choice whether to have it apply to us or not.

 

[Mister Emu]

claiming that homosexual sex will lead to the destruction of civilization or the human race.

From what I read he did not say that at all... he said despising the Creator would lead to self-destruction for humans, and on that I don't know if he meant actual or spiritual(I'd lean more towards spiritual)...

But it was said in the context of gender and human nature as male and female... so go with that if you wish

 

[Storm]

I don't really see what the hub-bub is about... I mean did anyone here not know what the Pope's stance on these issues was? Was this a suprise?

All he said is that we can't ignore human issues, and we all already know the Vatican's stance on those...

No, but it's still important to oppose it.

 

[Sunstone]

From what I read he did not say that at all... he said despising the Creator would lead to self-destruction for humans, and on that I don't know if he meant actual or spiritual(I'd lean more towards spiritual)...

But it was said in the context of gender and human nature as male and female... so go with that if you wish

Thanks for the qualification!

 

[Heneni]

Good point. But I don't find his pronouncements surprising -- I find them affronts to reason and evidence.

What the one calls right the other calls wrong. This is an unsolvable dillemma.

 

[Sunstone]

What the one calls right the other calls wrong. This is an unsolvable dillemma.

What one calls 2+2=4 the other calls 2+2=6. This is an unsolvable dilemma.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't really see what the hub-bub is about... I mean did anyone here not know what the Pope's stance on these issues was? Was this a suprise?

All he said is that we can't ignore human issues, and we all already know the Vatican's stance on those...

My issue with this speech isn't so much that the Catholic church is opposed to homosexuality; I agree that this isn't news. My problem is with the Pope claiming it to be of equal importance to protecting the environment. If this is used to guide the works of the Church and the faithful, I worry about what the effect might be.

The Pope has quite a bit of influence over about a billion people. He could use this influence to accomplish amazing things... but I worry that this pronouncement will send the Church in what I feel is the wrong direction.

For example, if this speech results in decisions in a few hundred dioceses to move the budget from some sort of environmental project to buying ad space in the local paper for letters from bishops against same-sex marriage, or if it inspires several thousand parish priests to decide to give homilies on sexual morality instead of the duty of dominion and stewardship over the planet, I think that this will result in real harm, or at least real foregone benefit.

 

[Heneni]

No, but it's still important to oppose it.

Its important to support it.

Depends on which team your playing for.