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pope opens door for anglicans to come over

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I spoke with my priest on this subject, Tonight after Eucharist.
He has seen both the American episcopal and Church of England perspective of this question, as he spent five years as an Episcopalian priest before being appointed to this parish.

He mentioned that the question of ownership of American church buildings has been tried in a number of states, and every time the verdict went in favor of of the diocese. American episcopalian priests have no ownership rights to their churches. That is doubly so in older churches that started life as Church of England ones. Those cases were slung out at an earlier stage.

He also said that in our Manchester Diocese, the priest that might go over are known trouble makers who do not accept the authority of any one, least of all their Bishops.
According to him some third of the priests who went over with the last Exodus, have now returned to the Anglican flock.

It seems the Consensus in the Diocese is that the sooner they go the better.
 

uu_sage

Active Member
Disaffected Anglicans already can find a home in the newly formed Anglican Church in North America (ACNA) founded by former Episcopal Bishop Robert Duncan or they can find a home in the Traditional Anglican Communion. The Traditional Anglican Communion has already made efforts to incorporate their movement into the leadership of the Vatican. Also they have the Anglican Use Congregations of the Catholic Church that incorporates them as a Catholic parish yet also allows the practices of Anglican heritage including worship, and married priests. It's likely that some will enter the ranks of the Catholic Church, and yet others will go to ACNA or a similar group. Finally, there may be some that may stay with the Anglican Communion to preserve their voice in the large tent of Anglicanism.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
I had originally put this in another forum, but it seems more appropriate here:

Slighly tangential but relevant to the previous questions, Taylor Marshall briefly served as an Anglican priest before converting to Catholicism in 2006. Marshall said he speaks with new Catholic converts every month, about half of whom have been "deeply influenced" by (Anglican) Bishop of Durham, Tom Wright.

"If you buy into Wright's approach to covenantal theology, then you've already taken three steps toward the Catholic Church. Keep following the trail and you'll be Catholic," said Marshall. "Salvation is sacramental, transformational, communal, and eschatological. Sound good? You've just assented to the Catholic Council of Trent."

The above was taken from Not All Evangelicals and Catholics Together | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction

The following is Tom Wright's response as published in a list I belong to of people who follow the Bishop's work. A member has asked for the source of this response, and we're still awaiting the answer. I'll update you when I have that answer. Anyway, here it is:

a. I'm on sabbatical writing Volume IV of my big series, on Paul; so I don't have time for more than a quick response.

b. 'Sacramental, transformational, communal, eschatological' ? If you gave me that list and said 'Where in the Christian world would you find that?' I could easily and truthfully answer: (i) in the best of the Reformed tradition -- spend a couple of days at Calvin College, or read Jamie Smith's new book, and you'll see; (ii) in much of the best of the charismatic movement, once it's shed its low-church prejudices and discovered how much God loves bodies; (iii) in the best of... dare I say it... Anglicanism. .. ; (iv) in some bits (not all) of the Emerging Church movement . . .

c. Trent said both much more and much less than this. Sacramental, yes, but in a muddled way with an unhelpful ontology; transformational, yes, but far too dependent on unbiblical techniques and practices; communal, yes, but don't let the laity (or the women) get any fancy ideas about God working new things through them; and eschatological? ? Eschatology in the biblical sense didn't loom large, and indeed that was a key element in the Reformers' protest: the once-for-allness of the events of Jesus' death and resurrection as producing, not a new system for doing the same stuff over and over, but a new world. Trent, and much subsequent RC theology, has had a habit of never spring-cleaning, so you just live in a house with more and more clutter building up, lots of right answers to wrong questions (e.g. transsubstantiation ) which then get in the way when you want to get something actually done. In particular, Trent gave the wrong answer, at a deep level, to the nature/grace question, which is what's at the root of the Marian dogmas and devotions which, despite contrary claims, are in my view neither sacramental, transformational, communal nor eschatological. Nor biblical. The best RCs I know (some of whom would strongly disagree with the last point, some would strongly agree) are great conversation partners mainly because they have found ways of pushing the accumulated clutter quietly to one side and creating space for real life. But it's against the grain of the Tridentine system, in my view. They aren't allowed to say that but clearly many of them think it. Joining in is just bringing more of your own clutter to an already confused and overcrowded room...

d. I am sorry to think that there are people out there whose Protestantism has been so barren that they never found out about sacraments, transformation, community or eschatology. Clearly this person needed a change. But to jump to Rome for that reason is very odd. It reminds me of the fine old German NT scholar Heinrich Schlier, who found that the only way to be a Protestant was to be a Bultmannian, so, because he couldn't take Bultmann, became a Roman Catholic; that was the only other option in his culture. Good luck to him; happily, most of us have plenty of other options. To say 'wow, I want that stuff, I'd better go to Rome' is like someone suddenly discovering (as I'm told Americans occasionally do -- sorry, cheap shot) that there are other countries in the world and so getting the first big boat he finds in New York to take him there . . . when there were plenty of planes lined up and waiting at JFK. Rome is a big, splendid, dusty old ocean liner, with lots of grand cabins, and, at present, quite a fine captain and some excellent officers -- but also quite a few rooms in need of repair. Yes, it may take you places, but it's slow and you might get seasick from time to time. And the navigators have been told that they must never acknowledge when they've been going in the wrong direction . . .

e. I spent three very happy weeks as the Anglican observer at the Vatican's Synod of Bishops last October. They were talking about the Bible: about how for so long they have more or less banned the laity from reading or studying it, and how now they want to change all that, to insist that every Catholic man, woman, child, cat and dog should have the Bible in their own mother tongue and be taught to read it, study it, pray with it, individually and together. Hallelujah! Who knows what might happen. Question: why did nobody say this in 1525? If they had, we'd have been saved a lot of bother. Let's engage cheerfully in as much discussion with our Roman friends as we can. They are among my best ecumenical conversation partners, and some of them are among my dear friends. But let's not imagine that a renewed biblical theology will mean we find ourselves saying 'you guys were right after all' just at the point where, not explicitly but actually, they are saying that to us . . .
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Disaffected Anglicans already can find a home in the newly formed Anglican Church in North America (ACNA) founded by former Episcopal Bishop Robert Duncan or they can find a home in the Traditional Anglican Communion. The Traditional Anglican Communion has already made efforts to incorporate their movement into the leadership of the Vatican. Also they have the Anglican Use Congregations of the Catholic Church that incorporates them as a Catholic parish yet also allows the practices of Anglican heritage including worship, and married priests. It's likely that some will enter the ranks of the Catholic Church, and yet others will go to ACNA or a similar group. Finally, there may be some that may stay with the Anglican Communion to preserve their voice in the large tent of Anglicanism.

The perhaps major problem for Anglicans in the USA is the extreme Diversity of their church's leaderships. Many have broken away from each other since their foundation, to the extent that their congregations no longer know if they are in relationship with Canterbury... Most are not.

I put a thread up in the Anglican forum showing which were and were not in the Anglican Communion.

NOT IN THE COMMUNION
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/episcopal-anglicans/19332-anglican-churches-not-communion.html

IN THE ANGLICAN COMMUNION
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...19306-member-churches-anglican-communion.html
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I can only hope that the church revisits such doctrines as transubstantiation and the necessity for Christians of other traditions to have to be re-baptized in order to participate fully in the Roman Catholic church.

The RCC doesn't require most Christians to be re=baptised if they convert to Catholicism. In fact, the RCC discourages rebaptism. The RCC accepts as valid any former baptism that was done in the Trinitarian form ("I baptise you in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit" - most protestant baptisms are Trinitarian). The RCC accepts nearly all mainstream protestant baptisms, regardless of the age that the person was baptised.

They do not accept "infant blessings" or that sort of thing though - gotta be an actual baptism.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
From skimming over these posts, it seems to me that there's some expectation that priests from protestant churches joining the RCC will somehow be bringing in their beliefs and practices. These priests will be required to CONVERT to Catholicism and to accept and practice Roman Catholic theology, liturgy, and ritual. They will no longer be Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist, Orthodox priests or ministers, they will be "full on" Roman Catholic priests.

Just the same as converts who aren't priests or ministers.

Anyone who converts to Roman Catholicism is required to fully accept and practice the Roman Catholic faith. Period. Which, in my opinion, is the POINT of conversion and as it should be. You don't join the Roman Catholic Church to CHANGE the Roman Catholic Church.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
From skimming over these posts, it seems to me that there's some expectation that priests from protestant churches joining the RCC will somehow be bringing in their beliefs and practices. These priests will be required to CONVERT to Catholicism and to accept and practice Roman Catholic theology, liturgy, and ritual. They will no longer be Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist, Orthodox priests or ministers, they will be "full on" Roman Catholic priests.

Just the same as converts who aren't priests or ministers.

Anyone who converts to Roman Catholicism is required to fully accept and practice the Roman Catholic faith. Period. Which, in my opinion, is the POINT of conversion and as it should be. You don't join the Roman Catholic Church to CHANGE the Roman Catholic Church.

Actually the new offer Does preserve some of the Anglican ways.
They can use the Anglican rites and book of common prayer. The priests will need to be conditionally re-ordained (This is because you can not be ordained twice, it is conditional because the first ordination "might" be valid. (they are hedging their bets)
The new priests will answer to their "own" bishops or appointed ex-Anglican Clergy.
they will however have to accept the Catholic beliefs where they differ from Anglican ones. What is not clear, is if the new priests are free to marry, if they are not already married.

I would have thought this will all cause some unrest amongst existing RC priests.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
These priests will be required to CONVERT to Catholicism and to accept and practice Roman Catholic theology, liturgy, and ritual. They will no longer be Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist, Orthodox priests or ministers, they will be "full on" Roman Catholic priests.
Actually the Eastern rites of the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox churches are very similar, they follow the same traditions, use the same liturgy, etc...

The question hinges in a large part on whether or not the Anglicans coming over would be joining the larger Latin rite, or if they would be part of their own rite, as the Eastern converts are...
 
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