porkchop & FFH

[porkchop]

After seeking permission off FFH, he has agreed to this one to one debate so as i can ask him loads of questions and also have a debate if we wish!!

First question.... In reading about mormonism, i have come across alot of material by "apostles" and "prophets" of the LDS faith. As a christian, i regard what the prophets in the Bible said to be the word of God and believe what they say. There are mormons that have said though, (not in these exact words) that what these people said was either wrong, disputted, or " it ain't doctrine so don't even go there".
I'm confused, can you help me out here and explain why you wouldn't take the word of a prophet of God as truth?

 

[FFH]

There are mormons that have said though, (not in these exact words) that what these people said was either wrong, disputted, or " it ain't doctrine so don't even go there".

I'll have to admit I haven't heard any Mormons say that....ever....

Our prophets, apostles, members, etc.believe the teachings of the ancient apostles and prophets and consider it part of LDS doctrine....

I'm confused, can you help me out here and explain why you wouldn't take the word of a prophet of God as truth?

You are assuming, possibly from the books you've read, that we don't accept the ancient apostles and prophets words.

The scriptures were given to us by inspiration, from God, which are accepted and taught as doctrine by LDS members, as long as the King James has been translated correctly from the original....

2 Timothy 3: 15-17
King James

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is* given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

* Not all scripture in the King James has been given by the inspiration of God, because there are errors, such as this one*, which were done purposely by men, in order to mislead and confuse...

Satan is the author of confulsion and he has put in subtle and almost unnoticable errors, in the King James, by using evil men to alter scripture.

2 Timothy 3:15- 17
Joseph Smith inspired version

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 And all scripture given by inspiration of God, is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness;

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[porkchop]

I'll have to admit I haven't heard any Mormons say that....ever....

Our prophets, apostles, members, etc.believe the teachings of the ancient apostles and prophets and consider it part of LDS doctrine....

Check out threads i've been on recently.

You are assuming, possibly from the books you've read, that we don't accept the ancient apostles and prophets words.

I'm going on what people have said on this forum.

The scriptures were given to us by inspiration, from God, which are accepted and taught as doctrine by LDS members, as long as the King James has been translated correctly from the original....

2 Timothy 3: 15-17
King James

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is* given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

* Not all scripture in the King James has been given by the inspiration of God, because there are errors, such as this one*, which were done purposely by men, in order to mislead and confuse...

Satan is the author of confulsion and he has put in subtle and almost unnoticable errors, in the King James, by using evil men to alter scripture.

2 Timothy 3:15- 17
Joseph Smith inspired version

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 And all scripture given by inspiration of God, is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness;

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I understand why you believe this as you have the book of mormon to add to what you believe is missing in the Bible.

What do you make of this quote from former president Joseph Fielding Smith:

"The fall of man came as a blessing in disguise... i never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin... we can hardly look upon anything resulting in such benefits as being a sin..."
doctrines of salvation, vol.1,1960ed.,pp.113-15.
Do you consider this man to be one of your prophets? Also do you believe this?

 

[FFH]

There are mormons that have said though, (not in these exact words) that what these people said was either wrong, disputted, or " it ain't doctrine so don't even go there".

A perfect example comes to mind, in which an LDS member might have said such a thing, not knowing this was an error in the King James, which had been corrected by inspiration from God, by Joseph Smith.

I will preface the scripture in John 4 that is in error by posting this doctrine taught by Joseph Smith.

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit"
~ Joseph Smith ~

I have underlined, bolded and colored certain words, so as to show the corresponding verses, which lead to the error in the King James, claiming God is a spirit.

The Woman at the Well

John 4: 24
King James

19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

John 4:21-28
Joseph Smith inspired version

21 The woman said unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.


22 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

23 Jesus said unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

24 Ye worship ye know not what; we know what we worship; and salvation is of the Jews.

25 And the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

26 For unto such hath God promised his Spirit. And they who worship him, must worship in spirit and in truth.

27 The woman said unto him, I know that Messias cometh, who is called Christ; when he is come, he will tell us all things.

28 Jesus said unto her, I who speak unto thee am the Messias.

This may account for LDS members claiming that not only prophets and apostles, but Jesus himself mispoke here, when in actuality these were not Jesus' words, but the words of men, who intentionally altered scripture in order to fit their particular false beliefs.

A perfect example of the evil designs of men given to him by inspiration of an opposing force....Satan, who is the father of all lies.....

 

[FFH]

What do you make of this quote from former president Joseph Fielding Smith:

"The fall of man came as a blessing in disguise... i never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin... we can hardly look upon anything resulting in such benefits as being a sin..."
doctrines of salvation, vol.1,1960ed.,pp.113-15.

There is a difference between transgression and sin.

I child transgresses the law, an adult sins against the law.

We believe, as LDS members, that a child is innocent and not under condemnation of God's laws until they reach the age of accountability, which occurs when a child turns 8 years old.

Adam and Eve were like little children, innocent and incapable of sinning.

They did not, and could not, sin, until their "eyes were opened" after they had partaken of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the law which forbade them to eat of the tree of "knowledge of good and evil".

They did not know sin until they had eaten of it's fruit and subsequently became fallen (subject to sin and death)...

Do you consider this man to be one of your prophets? Also do you believe this?

Yes, absolutely

 

[FFH]

Wow, Porkcop, excellent questions !!

 

[porkchop]

A perfect example comes to mind, in which an LDS member might have said such a thing, not knowing this was an error in the King James, which had been corrected by inspiration from God, by Joseph Smith.

I will preface the scripture in John 4 that is in error by posting this doctrine taught by Joseph Smith.

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit"
~ Joseph Smith ~

I have underlined, bolded and colored certain words, so as to show the corresponding verses, which lead to the error in the King James, claiming God is a spirit.

The Woman at the Well

John 4: 24
King James

19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

John 4:21-28
Joseph Smith inspired version

21 The woman said unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.


22 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

23 Jesus said unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

24 Ye worship ye know not what; we know what we worship; and salvation is of the Jews.

25 And the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

26 For unto such hath God promised his Spirit. And they who worship him, must worship in spirit and in truth.

27 The woman said unto him, I know that Messias cometh, who is called Christ; when he is come, he will tell us all things.

28 Jesus said unto her, I who speak unto thee am the Messias.

No, this wasn't what i was refering to, but that's interesting.

 

[porkchop]

There is a difference between transgression and sin.

I child transgresses the law, an adult sins against the law.

I see transgression and sin as the same thing, how do you get your understanding on this? The word transgression is translated also as sin,rebellion and trespass.

We believe, as LDS members, that a child is innocent and not under condemnation of God's laws until they reach the age of accountability, which occurs when a child turns 8 years old.

Why when they are 8? I believe that all children will go to heaven if they die until they reach an age of understanding, where they can decide to follow God or not. This age surely varies from child to child.

Adam and Eve were like little children, innocent and incapable of sinning.

How could they be incapable of sin?; that is what they did when they ate the fruit of the forbidden tree, they sinned.

They did not, and could not, sin, until their "eyes were opened" after they had partaken of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the law which forbade them to eat of the tree of "knowledge of good and evil".

They did not know sin until they had eaten of it's fruit and subsequently became fallen (subject to sin and death)...

They did not know sin till Eve decided to listen to someone other than God, and eat from the tree. Isn't the sin doing the act, not after the act?

Do you agree with the one i quoted that this was a good thing that Eve did?

 

[FFH]

I see transgression and sin as the same thing, how do you get your understanding on this? The word transgression is translated also as sin,rebellion and trespass.

This is one of the few times I would say that I learned this from attending various LDS meetings. I don't think I would have figured this out on my own. It's an obscure teaching in scripture. Hard to pin down with any one scripture...

Transgressions are sins, but are committed with a limited knowledge of God's laws and their consequences, being in a state of innocence, not knowing or fully understading good from evil.

To sin is to break God's laws, having a full knowledge and understanding of the law and it's consequences.

Transgression becomes sin when we know full well we are rebelling against the laws of God and know full well the consequences of our actions.

We will be judged according to the amount of knowledge we have at the time of our transgressions and/or sins.

I little child has a limited knowledge and understanding of God's laws and the consequences for breaking his laws... A child's brain has not developted enough to comprehend sin until the age of eight....

Adam and Eve were the same. They could not comprehend sin, because they had never sinned before and were existing in a state of innocence...

After they transgressed "their eyes were opened".

Why when they are 8? I believe that all children will go to heaven if they die until they reach an age of understanding, where they can decide to follow God or not. This age surely varies from child to child.

Here is another obscure teaching, which is hard to pin down and seems allusive...

Read over this carefully: Doctrine and Covenants 68: 25, 27 (LDS scripture)

and this: Doctrine and Covenants 29: 46-47 (LDS scripture)

and this: Moroni 8: 5, 8-14, 17, 19-20, 22 (Book of Mormon)

Is it a coincidence that Moroni chapter 8 verse 8 just happens to be talking about the innocence of children until 8 years old and the law of circumcision which was performed on a child 8 days old ???

I think God likes to do stuff like that...

How could they be incapable of sin?; that is what they did when they ate the fruit of the forbidden tree, they sinned.

They had never sinned before and were in a state of innocence, not knowing the full consequenses/repercussions of their actions. They quickly learned that their actions brought about serious consequences, more than they had bargained for I think....

Don't we do the same thing, risk breaking God's laws because we think we will get away with it and not experience any consequences from our particular choices ????

We soon learn otherwise. This life is designed to make us aware of the serious consequences of disobeying God..

This life is a learning experience for all of us....

We become wiser with each choice we make....

They did not know sin till Eve decided to listen to someone other than God, and eat from the tree. Isn't the sin doing the act, not after the act?

Yes it was sin, but more accurately transgression, not knowing the full affects/consequences of their actions....They were first time offenders There are even man made laws that, if broken for the first time, the justice system is much more lenient than if you are a repeat offender....The same pattern applies with God's laws....Repeat offenders who have a full knowledge of what they are doing and it's respective consequences will be punished accordingly....

Do you agree with the one i quoted that this was a good thing that Eve did?

It was a necessary part of Adam and Eve's progression towards becoming like God...

If they knew no evil they would know no good. They would have remained in a state of innocence, not knowing good and evil....They would know neither happiness nor misery...

We are here to experience the good and the bad, and recognize it for what it is. We learn, by experience, to avoid sin. and move towards righteousness.

We are free to remain in sin, if we choose, but eventually we will have to pay for our own sins, if we don't turn away from sin, take up our cross, and follow Christ.

 

[porkchop]

Thankyou for your answers to my questions, im understanding more what you believe.
On with the next question!........

Here's a mormon hymn i came across, im sure you know it, but i'll type the words anyway.

A Mormon Hymn.
By Eliza R. Snow.

"I had learned to call thee father
By thy spirit from on high:
But, until the key of knowledge
Was restored, i knew not why:
In the heavens are parents single?
No, the thought makes reason stare.
Truth is reason; truth eternal
Tells me, I've got a mother there."

Does the mother your'e refering to have anything to do with Mary? Or do you think there is a different mother there?

Also have you got the scripture that talks of this in your book of mormon so i can read it?

Thanks.

 

[FFH]

We have a heavenly Mother and Father who created our spirits...

There is no scripture to support the fact that we have a heavenly Mother, tt's just understood that we do, because of the fact that no one can enter into this heavenly kingdom, where our heavenly Father and Mother live, without being sealed/married to a husband or wife in an LDS temple...

If we are required to do it, then surely our heavenly Father and Mother have done the same....

LIke the song says "truth is reason"...

It stands to reason we have a heavenly Mother as well as a heavenly Father..

 

[FFH]

Here's a mormon hymn i came across, im sure you know it, but i'll type the words anyway.

A Mormon Hymn.
By Eliza R. Snow.

"I had learned to call thee father
By thy spirit from on high:
But, until the key of knowledge
Was restored, i knew not why:
In the heavens are parents single?
No, the thought makes reason stare.
Truth is reason; truth eternal
Tells me, I've got a mother there."

Click on this link: O My Father - Hymns #292
After download finishes, click on "Words and Music" and then the play button

Does the mother your'e refering to have anything to do with Mary? Or do you think there is a different mother there?

This absolutely has nothing to do with Mary. We have a heavenly Father and heavenly Mother and our spirits are the offspring of these heavenly parents.

 

[Katzpur]

R u Joking....???

MOD POST: Pope, you are new to RF and probably are unaware of the forum rules. This thread is on a one-on-one debate forum. Only Porkchop and FFH may post. Enjoy reading, though.​