Prabhupada's unconventional views

[Vinayaka]

Actually I can't figure out personally, what was the need of these various Hindu Gurus to go there and create awareness about Hindu ways.

I think the westerners 'called' them. At that time westerners were trekking to India in droves mainly across the land route. It was a very 60s thing to do. So someone wisely recognised the need for eastern spirituality, and masters sent their disciples on missions to "Go to the west and spread the word." Most Gurus were only following their own Gurus instructions, so on an inner level, a need was there, and it was met.

 

[Metempsychosis]

In other words, just move on.

Just ignore it. Time will tell. Prabhupad didn't go to bed with a Bollywood star, I don't see what this fixation some have on this stuff has to do with the bigger picture. I am not ISKCON, but I think some of these fixations are just as goofy as some things a Guru may have said or missaid or misheard.

If he is unconventional, man, I bet some folks consider me fit to be tied. I mean, who isn't controversial? My barber is controversial. Unconventional?

I got to go to work. May check in at lunch time.

Om Namah Sivaya

I posted this because after my personal interaction I found some of the over-indoctrinated ISKCONites still repeat those words like parrots on steroids.

 

[ShivaFan]

I posted this because after my personal interaction I found some of the over-indoctrinated ISKCONites still repeat those words like parrots on steroids.

No they don't. You're telling me that the first greeting I 'm going to get when I visit an ISKCON temple is something like:

"Welcome ShivaFan! Let me tell you about the fake moon landing which was filmed in a Hollywood studio!" ....

Ah, no. It doesn't happen. The first thing I get is stuff like, "Haribol Spirit Soul!" and "Hare Kdishna!" and (though I try to avoid them) some oldie but goodie devotee might spot me from those adventure days and want to "latch on me", "ShivaFan Prabhuji! Quick, devi go get him some halwa prashad immediately!" and then goofy love stuff, and "you're a demon! Surrender to Krsna, say Hare Krishna right now! Hariprshad, look it's ShivaFan! Give him a hug. So how's Ravana been lately? Hariprashad, get the buzzer and shave this guy's head, he's a demon!" - No, no, no, nooooo. Grabbing my feet. "We won't let go until you surrender to the lotus feet of Radharani and the Supreme Personality of Godhead!"

Yeah, sometimes it can get unnerving, but no fake moon landing stuff.

To be honest, squarepants, the way you talk about all this personal interaction you have with over-indoctrinated ISKCONites repeating like parrots fake moon landing agendas, makes me sort of think that perhaps you've been hanging out with these ISKCONites way more than the average person to bump into a couple of gray haired devotees talking about moon landings, makes me suspicious that you are actuallyna Closet Hare Krishna and don't even realize it.

Look, I don't need to go into the caveat "I am not ISKCON" routine, I'm a Saiva but I am not going to rag on them because they are too nice. I'm just glad there are Hare Krishna temples because sometimes I have to travel to different big cities, and sometimes the only temple within driving distance is an ISKCON temple, and so I am happy they are there. I don't let those trivia points about "once in 1969... yadda" bother me. Why do some stranger than knowns want to spend their good time on this? Just enjoy, and if you want, join in the adventure of Hinduism. Believe me, I've heard some "unconventional" things from Hindus in India, and all over the world, from every sect, and it makes things interesting and sometimes even fun.

Om Namah Sivaya


]

 

[Metempsychosis]

No they don't. You're telling me that the first greeting I 'm going to get when I visit an ISKCON temple is something like:

"Welcome ShivaFan! Let me tell you about the fake moon landing which was filmed in a Hollywood studio!" ....

Ah, no. It doesn't happen. The first thing I get is stuff like, "Haribol Spirit Soul!" and "Hare Kdishna!" and (though I try to avoid them) some oldie but goodie devotee might spot me from those adventure days and want to "latch on me", "ShivaFan Prabhuji! Quick, devi go get him some halwa prashad immediately!" and then goofy love stuff, and "you're a demon! Surrender to Krsna, say Hare Krishna right now! Hariprshad, look it's ShivaFan! Give him a hug. So how's Ravana been lately? Hariprashad, get the buzzer and shave this guy's head, he's a demon!" - No, no, no, nooooo. Grabbing my feet. "We won't let go until you surrender to the lotus feet of Radharani and the Supreme Personality of Godhead!"

Yeah, sometimes it can get unnerving, but no fake moon landing stuff.

To be honest, squarepants, the way you talk about all this personal interaction you have with over-indoctrinated ISKCONites repeating like parrots fake moon landing agendas, makes me sort of think that perhaps you've been hanging out with these ISKCONites way more than the average person to bump into a couple of gray haired devotees talking about moon landings, makes me suspicious that you are actuallyna Closet Hare Krishna and don't even realize it.

Look, I don't need to go into the caveat "I am not ISKCON" routine, I'm a Saiva but I am not going to rag on them because they are too nice. I'm just glad there are Hare Krishna temples because sometimes I have to travel to different big cities, and sometimes the only temple within driving distance is an ISKCON temple, and so I am happy they are there. I don't let those trivia points about "once in 1969... yadda" bother me. Why do some stranger than knowns want to spend their good time on this? Just enjoy, and if you want, join in the adventure of Hinduism. Believe me, I've heard some "unconventional" things from Hindus in India, and all over the world, from every sect, and it makes things interesting and sometimes even fun.

Om Namah Sivaya


]

No,I am not talking about hanging out and I am not talking about hare Krishna strangers.I used to stay with Hare Krishna's and attended a lot of their programs for 2 years so,I that is how I got to know them.You can call me a closet Hare krishna ,that's not really false.

 

[ShivaFan]

Namaste AR

Well, there ya' go! Two years is good enough.

I cannot even explain how many Hindus, and the various perspectives, sects, Sampradayas, Gurus, devotees, all over the world and not just America, I have been lucky to know.

That does not me I am a spong for all things, and everything. Like you, I also have a very particular devption and "faith" (I am assuming you are a Hindu, yes I know that is a catch all word ).

But I love them all.

Every one.

Om Namah Sivaya

 

[Metempsychosis]

Namaste AR

Well, there ya' go! Two years is good enough.

I cannot even explain how many Hindus, and the various perspectives, sects, Sampradayas, Gurus, devotees, all over the world and not just America, I have been lucky to know.

That does not me I am a spong for all things, and everything. Like you, I also have a very particular devption and "faith" (I am assuming you are a Hindu, yes I know that is a catch all word ).

But I love them all.

Every one.

Om Namah Sivaya

Yup,one Guru I met from ISKCON said Chaitanya Mahaprabhu asked his disciple to urinate on Yoga books.(not sure if this is true).

I am a hindu(by birth) and also a aspiring Stoic (read my signature).

 

[Philomath]

I didn't know about any of this...but I'm glad I do now...it makes my avoidance of ISKCON more understandable now.

 

[Silver Wolf]

But, one thing is for sure: Iskcon under Praphupada was much better than how it is now. Stuff hit the fan after his death.

Yeah.
I disagree a lot with Prabhupada, and I'm sure he would he would've labelled me "Mayavadi," and despise me; but I admire him for his devotion to his God, his firmness in his beliefs, and willingness to speak what he believed to be the truth.

 

[KrsnaDasa]

Namaste,

A distinction must be made. Everything that Śrila Prabhupada said that was "unethical" or possibly "offensive" stems mostly from his cultural upbringing, and that's really it. Spiritually, he was amazing! But when he spoke on material subjects, he did so with his knowledge of the material world and most likely saw it through the lens of his culture.

And like others have said, everything that was posted, Anti-Religion, is quite old news. And I would have a hard time counting how many threads about this subject have been brought up in so many different orums. It seems so common that people are making others "aware" of Prabhupada's "unethical" views, when, well, if you like Him you do, and if you don't you don't. Things like this become quite petty and hardly relevant to the person looking towards Prabhupada strictly for spiritual advice.

 

[ShivaFan]

Namaste Philomath

You will know what is best for your path, and since I do not know what journey you have travelled so far I cannot say if you have already put into practice a specific discipline, devotion, yoga or learning.

But I did notice one word you used in conjunction with association of other Hindus, in this case in relation to ISKCON, and that was "avoidance".

Here is a dirty little secret about Hinduism. There are some sects and practitioners who spend all their time telling others to avoid some other Hindu group. It becomes an obsession with them.

In one way, aspects of ISKCON would do this, saying to avoid "mayavadis" or "impersonalists".

Avoidance of attachments is a common Hindu practice, avoiding those who discriminate against others another, avoiding questionable restaurants or all restaurants, avoiding can often be a good thing, there are many examples.

For example spme monks whom I respect recently told me to "stay away from them" i.e. avoid those Hindus who practice suppression and discrimination of others and in particular who practice demeaning discrimination of other Hindus.

Not that I am the best to advise regarding overall Hinduism, I would caution about "avoidance" of your experiences or opportunities to have association with fellow Hindus, to not limit yourself too early, or even late in your path, you never know what grand and great things can await your journey, it really can be rewarding even if you are not "one of them".

You do not need to become something else no matter how much they may want you to be them. You will know. But don't limit your associations, certainly not based on "reviews" of others.

You have an affinity with Sadhus. Sadhus have their own ways. Often they are alone. But at the same, they "avoid" no other person in the sense of fearing them or thinking them a threat to their spirit, or avoiding other Hindu sects.

Every sect can find plenty of criticism of another, but do not limit your world based on all of this. The guest may be your greatest of teachers.....

Om Namah Sivaya

 

[Vinayaka]

The term 'avoidance' can have several levels. It can mean, 'in general' or 'when possible' right up to shunning. The translations of the Tirukkural have the term, in relation to backbiting, and to bad company, and probably more. I'm not sure if Tiruvalluvar meant 'to shun'.

Personally, I avoid reading too much, as it can cause confusion to mix paths. Not wise to have two Gurus, in my opinion. What do you do if they give different directions, like two doctors giving two different prescriptions.

So I think it's this idea of a total shun that we should be hesitant to implement. It's a bit cold for a Hindu to behave that way, unless of course, its a danger to your life, and we have restraining orders in civil laws for that.

Personally, I will go into any templem and sect, any sampradaya, although I'd have to think deeply on one where animal sacrifice was still occurring.

 

[Silver Wolf]

Namaste Philomath

You will know what is best for your path, and since I do not know what journey you have travelled so far I cannot say if you have already put into practice a specific discipline, devotion, yoga or learning.

But I did notice one word you used in conjunction with association of other Hindus, in this case in relation to ISKCON, and that was "avoidance".

Here is a dirty little secret about Hinduism. There are some sects and practitioners who spend all their time telling others to avoid some other Hindu group. It becomes an obsession with them.

In one way, aspects of ISKCON would do this, saying to avoid "mayavadis" or "impersonalists".

Avoidance of attachments is a common Hindu practice, avoiding those who discriminate against others another, avoiding questionable restaurants or all restaurants, avoiding can often be a good thing, there are many examples.

For example spme monks whom I respect recently told me to "stay away from them" i.e. avoid those Hindus who practice suppression and discrimination of others and in particular who practice demeaning discrimination of other Hindus.

Not that I am the best to advise regarding overall Hinduism, I would caution about "avoidance" of your experiences or opportunities to have association with fellow Hindus, to not limit yourself too early, or even late in your path, you never know what grand and great things can await your journey, it really can be rewarding even if you are not "one of them".

You do not need to become something else no matter how much they may want you to be them. You will know. But don't limit your associations, certainly not based on "reviews" of others.

You have an affinity with Sadhus. Sadhus have their own ways. Often they are alone. But at the same, they "avoid" no other person in the sense of fearing them or thinking them a threat to their spirit, or avoiding other Hindu sects.

Every sect can find plenty of criticism of another, but do not limit your world based on all of this. The guest may be your greatest of teachers.....

Om Namah Sivaya

I never understood why Prabhupada despised Impersonalist so much. I have nothing against him, but I feel he did not fully understand the "Mayavadi." as he called them.
Btw, I loved your post. :yes:

 

[KrsnaDasa]

I never understood why Prabhupada despised Impersonalist so much. I have nothing against him, but I feel he did not fully understand the "Mayavadi." as he called them.
Btw, I loved your post. :yes:

He didn't really "despise" them, he was just warning from people following their path. According to Vaisnavism, NOT just Prabhupada, we cannot be completely one with God. Also, some people need to look at other Vaisnava websites that put down Advaita, Prabhupada isn't the only one, and instead of looking at it as them putting others down (I feel they are more mature then that) look at it as them trying to help and fight possible temptations. I feel that the difference lies in the delivery. Prabhupada saw it as he did and stated it bluntly, while many universalist "Advaita" Gurus today sugar coat it by saying one starts as Dvaita and ends up at Advaita, thus basically saying that if you have ignorance, Dvaita appears as the truth. Seems like some Advaita Gurus, NOT ALL, are just wolves in sheeps skin. While Vaisnava Acharyas decided not to wear a mask at all and tell it to all as their Gurus told them.

According to Gaudiya Vaisnavism it is a great offense against Lord Krsna to consider yourself one with him, because we are Jivas. And one cannot chant The Maha Mantra if they see themselves as one with Krsna. So really, Prabhupada was just informing people how to chant, for that is the foundation of the Gaudiya Vaisnava road.

 

[Philomath]

Namaste Philomath

You will know what is best for your path, and since I do not know what journey you have travelled so far I cannot say if you have already put into practice a specific discipline, devotion, yoga or learning.

But I did notice one word you used in conjunction with association of other Hindus, in this case in relation to ISKCON, and that was "avoidance".

Here is a dirty little secret about Hinduism. There are some sects and practitioners who spend all their time telling others to avoid some other Hindu group. It becomes an obsession with them.

In one way, aspects of ISKCON would do this, saying to avoid "mayavadis" or "impersonalists".

Avoidance of attachments is a common Hindu practice, avoiding those who discriminate against others another, avoiding questionable restaurants or all restaurants, avoiding can often be a good thing, there are many examples.

For example spme monks whom I respect recently told me to "stay away from them" i.e. avoid those Hindus who practice suppression and discrimination of others and in particular who practice demeaning discrimination of other Hindus.

Not that I am the best to advise regarding overall Hinduism, I would caution about "avoidance" of your experiences or opportunities to have association with fellow Hindus, to not limit yourself too early, or even late in your path, you never know what grand and great things can await your journey, it really can be rewarding even if you are not "one of them".

You do not need to become something else no matter how much they may want you to be them. You will know. But don't limit your associations, certainly not based on "reviews" of others.

You have an affinity with Sadhus. Sadhus have their own ways. Often they are alone. But at the same, they "avoid" no other person in the sense of fearing them or thinking them a threat to their spirit, or avoiding other Hindu sects.

Every sect can find plenty of criticism of another, but do not limit your world based on all of this. The guest may be your greatest of teachers.....

Om Namah Sivaya

Nameste Shiva Fan

I didn't mean avoid by avoiding other Hindu's, I meant avoid by avoiding certain ISKCON philosophies and ideas. I wouldn't avoid other Hindu's.

 

[Viraja]

Even me - after reading Srila Prabhupada's views on women, Hitler, Africans, and so forth, I decided not to purchase Srimad Bhagavatam written by him which had procured good reviews on Amazon.

 

[KrsnaDasa]

Namaste, and,

GAHHHHHH! Viraja, I can understand that you disagree with Prabhupada's CULTURAL views, but you missed out by refusing to purchase His masterpiece purports on the Srimad Bhagavatam!

Now, I am a follower of GV, and indeed have tons of respect for Śrila Prabhupada, but one must make the distinction between things which He said that come from His cultural upbringing, and things that He says spiritually which are supported by Sastra. If you look at these very questionable things He says, He doesn't site scripture or anything Sastric. Therefore where else could He have gotten it from? Well, certainly elsewhere than Sanatana Dharma.

But then again, many of these are the reasons why I would refuse to join ISKCON, such controversies as this. Sadly that is what His movement has stooped down to. So on the other hand, I can perfectly understand why some people view this stuff as they do.

But, it's all good as long as there is love for Sriman Lakshmi Narayana!

Jai Sri Sri Radha-Krsna!

 

[Silver Wolf]

He didn't really "despise" them, he was just warning from people following their path. According to Vaisnavism, NOT just Prabhupada, we cannot be completely one with God. Also, some people need to look at other Vaisnava websites that put down Advaita, Prabhupada isn't the only one, and instead of looking at it as them putting others down (I feel they are more mature then that) look at it as them trying to help and fight possible temptations. I feel that the difference lies in the delivery. Prabhupada saw it as he did and stated it bluntly, while many universalist "Advaita" Gurus today sugar coat it by saying one starts as Dvaita and ends up at Advaita, thus basically saying that if you have ignorance, Dvaita appears as the truth. Seems like some Advaita Gurus, NOT ALL, are just wolves in sheeps skin. While Vaisnava Acharyas decided not to wear a mask at all and tell it to all as their Gurus told them.

According to Gaudiya Vaisnavism it is a great offense against Lord Krsna to consider yourself one with him, because we are Jivas. And one cannot chant The Maha Mantra if they see themselves as one with Krsna. So really, Prabhupada was just informing people how to chant, for that is the foundation of the Gaudiya Vaisnava road.

I think Prabhupada mistook many "Mayavadi" wanting to realize oneness with God, as a megalomaniacal desire to get God's power and worship (most of us don't.) That was just what was suggested to me in his writings.
He was a very polite, though blunt, man. He said what he meant, although I have never read of any hint of impoliteness in his talks with other people such as scientist, professors, and members of other religions (even those classified as "Mayavadi.") He seemed to always have the highest politeness.

 

[Maya3]

What do ISCKON say about his views on Hitler and Africans?

I think this is really scary, especially since Bhakti has become so popular again lately.
My temple sometimes have joined events with a Bhakti group, they are not ISCKON but they do write that they are inspired by Prabhupada.
Am I too judgmental? People who are part of the Bhakti group I'm sure are not some racist Hitler supporters but still, this makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Maya

 

[KrsnaDasa]

I think Prabhupada mistook many "Mayavadi" wanting to realize oneness with God, as a megalomaniacal desire to get God's power and worship (most of us don't.) That was just what was suggested to me in his writings.
He was a very polite, though blunt, man. He said what he meant, although I have never read of any hint of impoliteness in his talks with other people such as scientist, professors, and members of other religions (even those classified as "Mayavadi.") He seemed to always have the highest politeness.

You are pretty much right on the nose! That is what he was saying, because according to him, the last desire of the ego is to become the ultimate controller, the supreme enjoyer, who would be called God. He looked at it as the desire to become one with God was the last major strike of the ego. And to a certain extent, I agree. A lot of these controversial "gurus" started off very pure, doing their sadhana and such. But then when they are put on a pedestal, whatever bit of this impure ego is left, it's going to love this attention and corruption can occur. The only thing is, it certainly isn't limited to impersonalists....

 

[KrsnaDasa]

What do ISCKON say about his views on Hitler and Africans?

I think this is really scary, especially since Bhakti has become so popular again lately.
My temple sometimes have joined events with a Bhakti group, they are not ISCKON but they do write that they are inspired by Prabhupada.
Am I too judgmental? People who are part of the Bhakti group I'm sure are not some racist Hitler supporters but still, this makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Maya

To call anyone who follows Prabhupada a "racist hitler supporter" would be very extreme. Please look back at my posts. There is a great different between his spiritual talks (in which he cites scripture), and his talks on politics and worldly matters where his upbringing and culture are the lens he looks though (and he couldnt cite scripture for such things, which is why he probably looked at it from his cultural point of view)