Prabhupada's unconventional views

[Silver Wolf]

What do ISCKON say about his views on Hitler and Africans?

I think this is really scary, especially since Bhakti has become so popular again lately.
My temple sometimes have joined events with a Bhakti group, they are not ISCKON but they do write that they are inspired by Prabhupada.
Am I too judgmental? People who are part of the Bhakti group I'm sure are not some racist Hitler supporters but still, this makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Maya

Some quotes are taken out of context. Like when Prabhupads compared Hitler and Napoleon to Kamsa and Hiranyakashipu and called them "great heroes." Kamsa and Hiranyakashipu weren't exactly known for their morality, although they could qualify as great (and I've heard they were actually great devotees of God disguised as demons.) The next line after that says that after death they are finished, forgotten, or something like that.
Prabhupada was also friendly with a Jewish Holocaust survivor, so he was not Anti-Semite, at least not racially or ethnically.
If Prabhupada admired Hitler, this may disturb you - but so what? Whether he liked Hitler or was racist to blacks was irrelevant. He kept his personal beliefs to himself and preached God conscious. To all, regardless of race or ethnicity.
Plus, as Krishna Casa said, culture plays a factor. In India, light skin is regarded as a sign of high caste, and dark skin disliked. Prabhupada was raised in that culture.

 

[Philomath]

The other quotes were pretty bad but this one is pretty personal for me

"Sudra is to be controlled only. They are never given to be freedom. Just like in America. The blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied."

 

[KrsnaDasa]

Also, this shows how much people love to find the negative in everything. Have we forgotten that Srila Prabhupada said, as many other great Acharyas, that the first step to realization is to stop identifying with the body? Have we forgotten the men and WOMEN, both white and BLACK, who joined his movement? If actions speak louder then words, then I say look at Prabhupada members and devotees, they are of both sexes, gay and strait, white and black, etc. His actions of initiating everyone shows that His views on race and sex truly mean very little in the eyes of God, but such things and topics seem to matter so much to man, as we can see in this thread.

Know both sides, and have the power of discrimination to understand which is more important.

Aham Brahmasmi- I am Spirit, not the body!

 

[Philomath]

Also, this shows how much people love to find the negative in everything. Have we forgotten that Srila Prabhupada said, as many other great Acharyas, that the first step to realization is to stop identifying with the body? Have we forgotten the men and WOMEN, both white and BLACK, who joined his movement? If actions speak louder then words, then I say look at Prabhupada members and devotees, they are of both sexes, gay and strait, white and black, etc. His actions of initiating everyone shows that His views on race and sex truly mean very little in the eyes of God, but such things and topics seem to matter so much to man, as we can see in this thread.

Know both sides, and have the power of discrimination to understand which is more important.

Aham Brahmasmi- I am Spirit, not the body!

Of course Prabhupada did say and do some positive things, but he also said the negative things found in this thread. People join organizations where the leader says negative things all the time. For instance Mormonism, some of their leaders were blatantly racist and even some of their texts are, but black people joined and continue to join the church anyway.

 

[KrsnaDasa]

Of course Prabhupada did say and do some positive things, but he also said the negative things found in this thread. People join organizations where the leader says negative things all the time. For instance Mormonism, some of their leaders were blatantly racist and even some of their texts are, but black people joined and continue to join the church anyway.

Yes, and He also personally initiated them. Prabhupada was quite a fundamentalist in many ways, as many see, and the fact He still allowed everyone in shows, from the perspective of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, that all are welcome. In the end Śrila Prabhupada was a man, a great man, but still a man. Or some would say he is a soul, a great soul, but still a soul. Either way, it shows that, like the rest of us, he isn't exempt from making mistakes. His actions really have spoken louder than his words, for those with the eyes to see.

 

[Maya3]

Some quotes are taken out of context. Like when Prabhupads compared Hitler and Napoleon to Kamsa and Hiranyakashipu and called them "great heroes." Kamsa and Hiranyakashipu weren't exactly known for their morality, although they could qualify as great (and I've heard they were actually great devotees of God disguised as demons.) The next line after that says that after death they are finished, forgotten, or something like that.
Prabhupada was also friendly with a Jewish Holocaust survivor, so he was not Anti-Semite, at least not racially or ethnically.
If Prabhupada admired Hitler, this may disturb you - but so what? Whether he liked Hitler or was racist to blacks was irrelevant. He kept his personal beliefs to himself and preached God conscious. To all, regardless of race or ethnicity.
Plus, as Krishna Casa said, culture plays a factor. In India, light skin is regarded as a sign of high caste, and dark skin disliked. Prabhupada was raised in that culture.

That is certainly not irrelevant. A God conscious person would never be racist or judgmental. That in itself proves that he was not Self Realized.

KrsnaDasa

To call anyone who follows Prabhupada a "racist hitler supporter" would be very extreme. Please look back at my posts. There is a great different between his spiritual talks (in which he cites scripture), and his talks on politics and worldly matters where his upbringing and culture are the lens he looks though (and he couldnt cite scripture for such things, which is why he probably looked at it from his cultural point of view)

I never said that people that follow him are racists or hitler supporters. I asked what ISCKON feels about HIS views.
Since he is their guru I would think that a lot of people have thoughts about these statements of his.

Maya

 

[Philomath]

Yes, and He also personally initiated them. Prabhupada was quite a fundamentalist in many ways, as many see, and the fact He still allowed everyone in shows, from the perspective of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, that all are welcome. In the end Śrila Prabhupada was a man, a great man, but still a man. Or some would say he is a soul, a great soul, but still a soul. Either way, it shows that, like the rest of us, he isn't exempt from making mistakes. His actions really have spoken louder than his words, for those with the eyes to see.

Your right, but I don't expect this from a self realized Guru.

 

[KrsnaDasa]

Your right, but I don't expect this from a self realized Guru.

If his actions don't count to you, then fine. But it's better then what some "gurus" have been caught on camera doing. Prabhupada's controversies are barely anything compared to some other "self realized" men. Drug abuse, sexual misconduct, etc. Which yes, was found within ISKCON, but not by Prabhupada. Vaisnava scripture states that it is the actions that prove whether one is self realized, rather then their cultural views. Also, Prabhupada didn't believe in emptying himself or giving up the mind, or expanding consciousness infinitly beyond. He believed in Bhakti, and His devotion is the mark of His realization.

And just so this is clear, I'm not trying to vehemently defend Prabhupada, as I believe his Bhakti, and His actions do that for him. I just enjoy Prabhupada conversations, and peoples various views.

 

[Silver Wolf]

That is certainly not irrelevant. A God conscious person would never be racist or judgmental. That in itself proves that he was not Self Realized.

I hate using the "No True Scotsman" argument, but here I'll have to. Who are you to say that only certain people with certain views are God conscious? You are only one small part and parcel of God, so are all of us. We have no right to say who can or can't achieve God conscious.

 

[KrsnaDasa]

I hate using the "No True Scotsman" argument, but here I'll have to. Who are you to say that only certain people with certain views are God conscious? You are only one small part and parcel of God, so are all of us. We have no right to say who can or can't achieve God conscious.

:clap if someone says "he is realized and he isn't " only shows the limited view of the perceiver. And Maya3, I see you are a practitioner of Advaita, tell me, how many Advaita Vedanta philosophers have said to stop worrying about the body and what it does and to stop identifying with it because everything happens according to the will of God? I can think of Ramana Maharshi, who specifically told someone that if they did something wrong that they shouldnt identify with that action but instead ask "who am I?" and see who the doer is. nisargadatta Maharaj also followed this view.

 

[vistascan]

:clap And Maya3, I see you are a practitioner of Advaita, tell me, how many Advaita Vedanta philosophers have said to stop worrying about the body and what it does and to stop identifying with it because everything happens according to the will of Go.

I can think of no traditional advaitins who would say this

 

[KrsnaDasa]

I can think of no traditional advaitins who would say this

To a certain extent perhaps. But Adi Shankara does say that bodily identification is Avidya, and many Advaitins would agree that everything happens according to a higher will, until you get to the absolute level where Vivartavada and Ajati Vada come into play.

But, I refuse to have a conversation about Advaita, I shouldn't have gone there. As I have said before, most Advaita arguments turn into word jugglery.

 

[Maya3]

Silver wolf,

I hate using the "No True Scotsman" argument, but here I'll have to. Who are you to say that only certain people with certain views are God conscious? You are only one small part and parcel of God, so are all of us. We have no right to say who can or can't achieve God conscious.

I can't say that.
But a racist, who proclaims that African Americans should be kept as slaves and someone who likes Hitler?
I don't need to say anymore.

KrsnaDasa,

if someone says "he is realized and he isn't " only shows the limited view of the perceiver. And Maya3, I see you are a practitioner of Advaita, tell me, how many Advaita Vedanta philosophers have said to stop worrying about the body and what it does and to stop identifying with it because everything happens according to the will of God? I can think of Ramana Maharshi, who specifically told someone that if they did something wrong that they shouldnt identify with that action but instead ask "who am I?" and see who the doer is. nisargadatta Maharaj also followed this view.

Not a single one of my teacher has said that slavery is good and that Hitler was a good man.

Maya

 

[Vinayaka]

This thread certainly demonstrates why Prabhupada, and ISKCON have been controversial over the years.

 

[vistascan]

To a certain extent perhaps. But Adi Shankara does say that bodily identification is Avidya, and many Advaitins would agree that everything happens according to a higher will, until you get to the absolute level where Vivartavada and Ajati Vada come into play.

But, I refuse to have a conversation about Advaita, I shouldn't have gone there. As I have said before, most Advaita arguments turn into word jugglery.

There is no vivartavada at the absolute level, only at the vyavaharic level. You cannot go from "bodily identification is due to avidya" to "what you do with your body does not matter if you're a jnani". That is not said anywhere

And all language use is word jugglery.

 

[Silver Wolf]

Silver wolf,


I can't say that.
But a racist, who proclaims that African Americans should be kept as slaves and someone who likes Hitler?
I don't need to say anymore.

KrsnaDasa,


Not a single one of my teacher has said that slavery is good and that Hitler was a good man.

Maya

That's a personal view, personal views are just that, personal, they live and die with the body. The soul is created and commanded by God, if a soul holds that opinion, it is by the Almighty's will.

 

[Maya3]

That's a personal view, personal views are just that, personal, they live and die with the body. The soul is created and commanded by God, if a soul holds that opinion, it is by the Almighty's will.

Personal views become a bit more aligned with ethical behavior if you are enlightened.

As a very wise person here likes to quote, if you can´t see God in all, you cannot see God at all.

Maya

 

[Vinayaka]

As a very wise person here likes to quote, if you can´t see God in all, you cannot see God at all.

Maya

Yeah but sometimes it is a bit of a struggle.

 

[Maya3]

Yeah but sometimes it is a bit of a struggle.

Maya

 

[Silver Wolf]

Personal views become a bit more aligned with ethical behavior if you are enlightened.

As a very wise person here likes to quote, if you can´t see God in all, you cannot see God at all.

Maya

Eh, but what is ethics grasshopper? Morality is an ever evolving thing
The doer is not the doing. The doer is just an actor, no more, no less. The devotees of Lord Vishnu will incarnate as demons, but they are not demons, likewise, the souls will incarnate as certain people with various beliefs, but they are not these persons and their beliefs.