Prayer in Public Schools

[Kathryn]

Well this is a separate debate, but I didn't say the basics of the practice of their faith. I was talking about understanding why they believe what they do. And I think it would be the rare 10 year old that "believes" the religion of their parents for a reason other than the old "because I say so."

A complete and thorough understanding of the fine points of doctrine is not required to begin a walk of faith. We grow in our faith, or grow out of it.

I am a Christian. I follow the teachings of Jesus. He said this:


Luke 18:15-17
[15] People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. [16] But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. [17] I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

When and if you have children, hopefully you will teach them how to think and live morally and ethically. Surely you will realize that when they are six and ten and even fifteen they will not fully grasp why and how when it comes to ethics - children grow into wisdom and knowledge and faith. But don't underestimate how much a child does understand. Haven't you ever heard the phrase "the wisdom of a child?"

 

[seeker69]

And . . . ? Are you really under the impression that education is a pick-and-chose, pay-as-you-decide sort of operation? If so, then you need a large reality pill. If not, then why are you bringing up the point?

Those who pay for a service should have a say in how that service is utilized, which is why a compulsory system fails and yes I’m opposed to public school because it forces everyone to pay for something many aren’t using. And the same goes for other “services” too.

 

[Revoltingest]

Those who pay for a service should have a say in how that service is utilized, which is why a compulsory system fails and yes I’m opposed to public school because it forces everyone to pay for something many aren’t using. And the same goes for other “services” too.

I can understand that, but there's a big up side to paying for this service you don't use. If only parents paid for their kids' education,
then many wouldn't do an adequate job, robbing the future economy of useful workers, & adding to our burden of unproductive citizens.
Education of other people's children does benefit us all.

 

[Magic Man]

I can understand that, but there's a big up side to paying for this service you don't use. If only parents paid for their kids' education,
then many wouldn't do an adequate job, robbing the future economy of useful workers, & adding to our burden of unproductive citizens.
Education of other people's children does benefit us all.

But, but that's socialism! Sorry, I had to. I just couldn't believe you'd be answering that comment for me.

I wish more people understood this.

 

[seeker69]

But, but that's socialism! Sorry, I had to. I just couldn't believe you'd be answering that comment for me.

I wish more people understood this.

Yes, you’re right a social welfare system operated by the state and paid for by taxation is socialism. And I’m opposed to that system.

 

[Magic Man]

Yes, you’re right a social welfare system operated by the state and paid for by taxation is socialism. And I’m opposed to that system.

Actually, I was just kidding. If you want to consider it socialism, go right ahead, but it's not really. Anyway, how did "social welfare state" get thrown into this? We were talking about education. As Revolting said, a public education system is good for everyone, even those who aren't directly using it. (Also, welfare programs are good for similar reasons.)

 

[seeker69]

The State is socialism, the public education system is socialism and there would be no debate about prayer in public schools if there were no public schools. So it is all related.

 

[linwood]

What if a student wanted to perform a prayer (like a Muslim for example) in any empty space? Or is this a different topic?

This is allowed under US law as it should be.
Students can even form prayer groups and pray together as long as it does not interfere with their daily schedule/classes.
It does not have to be done in an empty space nor should empty/private space required.

Fair question, YES

yes religion should be kept personal in my opinion, give them a inch like a simple prayer and they would evolve a prayer only to appeal for those who are in ear shot.

So you believe theists should be confined to a closet in order to express or practice their beliefs?
A bit totalitarian isn`t that?

So then it would be Ok to also say that atheism should be kept personal, as any derogatory remarks towards one's prayer or religion would be offensive and infinge on that one's rights of freedom of religion.

Indeed for consistencies sake this would be required.
Which is why I`m against outhouses earlier totalitarian belief.

I propose this one for us:
Oh, God or gods who definitely or possibly aren't in Heaven or any other supernatural realm, just ignore
me & let me take blame or credit for whatever success or failure I have facing life's trials & tribulations.
But if you do exist, may pestilence & perfidy afflict my enemies, may I see them driven before me, &
hear the lamentation of their women!

That...brought a tear to my eye.

I would say the removal of commandments gave way to a more liberal way of doing things. Liberty without rules is anarchy. That is the way liberals prefer it. So anarchy it is. Just remember to send your kids to school with a glock.

Exactly what moral commandments were removed?
My kids schools still teach that lying,cheating,stealing, and murder are unacceptable.
The rest of the commandments were nothing more than idolatry for an insecure deity.
Not to mention that they discriminated against those who held that deity as false.

I believe that laws prohibiting prayer in public schools are against the constitution that grants freedom of speech. Prayer is speech that should be as protected as any other form of free speech.

Zadok

There are no laws prohibiting prayer in schools.
There are laws prohibiting school administration from leading kids in prayer.
I don`t see why you`d be against that considering the first Muslim vice principle to lead your kid in an Islamic prayer would have you down at the school board office vehemently complaining.

 

[Jake.]

I went to a Catholic school as a child from the age of 3-11, and I remember every morning I had to sit cross-legged on the floor with a hymn book ready to sing to "the Lord". One of my friends had made a parody out of one of the songs, and my headmaster had heard him. So after the hymn had ended, she stood him up out of everybody in the whole of the room of 100 of us and made a fool out of him. I, myself, never even opened my book, well, I'll be honest I did draw the odd picture of Jesus with DJ headphones on over the contents page. The teachers expected EVERYBODY to pray after we had sung, and most children did because they were vulnerable to accept that it was right to pray for this God. For instance I may have before I had learned about the story of Jesus at about 7, but after then I didn't bother as I knew it was a load of BS. Really now looking back I am quite sickened that children should go through such nonsense when they don't even know what they're doing. How about a school where you're allowed to choose for yourself what you believe in and what you don't believe in before you start praying to some Deity? No, they just don't do those schools, well at least I haven't seen these schools yet. Would a Christian send their child to a Muslim school which teaches about Islam where they had to pray to Allah? Somehow I don't see that happening.

 

[Revoltingest]

I went to a Catholic school as a child from the age of 3-11, and I remember every morning I had to sit cross-legged on the floor with a hymn book ready to sing to "the Lord". One of my friends had made a parody out of one of the songs, and my headmaster had heard him. So after the hymn had ended, she stood him up out of everybody in the whole of the room of 100 of us and made a fool out of him. I, myself, never even opened my book, well, I'll be honest I did draw the odd picture of Jesus with DJ headphones on over the contents page. The teachers expected EVERYBODY to pray after we had sung, and most children did because they were vulnerable to accept that it was right to pray for this God. For instance I may have before I had learned about the story of Jesus at about 7, but after then I didn't bother as I knew it was a load of BS.

Catholics make such good atheists.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

School should be secular. No religion should be endorsed by the school. No prayers should be said over the intercom and such. Nothing of that sort. However, if a child or group of children want to pray on their own outside of the classrooms and not during a class period, there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. It is not interfering with any learning, so there is no reason to forbid it. I know that I, as a student in high school, would never pray or anything of the sort at school. School isn't for praying, it's for learning. But when you aren't being taught, there is no problem.


So to finalize, publicized prayer or school endorsed prayer should not be allowed. Kids can pray if they want, on their own time.

 

[Magic Man]

The State is socialism, the public education system is socialism and there would be no debate about prayer in public schools if there were no public schools. So it is all related.

Whether or not it's all related doesn't matter. We were talking about schools, not welfare. Having a government is not socialism. Yes, there would be no debate about prayer in public schools if there were no public schools, but there should be public schools, and they should be secular.

 

[Skwim]

Those who pay for a service should have a say in how that service is utilized,

And you do have a say. It's through your Office of the State Superintendent of Education, or whatever it's called. Through the direction of elected officials educational standards have been set up to best serve the needs of all students. Obviously, if the science curriculum includes instruction on evolution then it's a subject they deem is important your child should know. Thing is, the state can't tailor education to the likes or dislikes of particular individuals. And, as much as you may not want your child exposed to subject X, it's in the best interests of society as a whole that (s)he be as well educated as possible; that they meet the minimal requirements set by your state.

which is why a compulsory system fails and yes I’m opposed to public school because it forces everyone to pay for something many aren’t using. And the same goes for other “services” too.

But it doesn't fail. That's the neat part.

It insures that society won't be filled with a bunch of dummkopfs because whining snowflakes got their way and got to stay home. As far as not using some aspect of education, how do you determine this before the fact? How can you be sure that your precious won't need to use evolution, or geometry, or English composition later in life? You can't, which is why exposure to all kinds of topics is important.

In any case, let's get back to the prayer in school issue.

 

[waitasec]

teaching intelligent design is teaching religion in public schools...PERIOD. and imo, there is no room for that in the CLASSROOM.
having said that, i do not think ANY religious activity should be banned in schools as long as ALL religions are treated equally.

 

[Nerthus]

having said that, i do not think ANY religious activity should be banned in schools as long as ALL religions are treated equally.

I agree. Children will be going to mixed faith schools, and no one religion should be put ahead of another.

If there is to be prayer introduced, then it should be according to that child's faith and only if they are willing to participate.

 

[Revoltingest]

But it doesn't fail. That's the neat part.

I suppose it depends upon how you define "fail". Over in Detroit, gov't run public education has been in da terlit for 50 years, with no solution in sight.
Teacher unions quash attempts to publicly fund private competition. School officials & City Council are more interested in feathering their own nests.
Voters don't rock this boat. Structurally, it seems permanently stable in a condition where kids can grow up capable of discussing evolution with their
robbery victims & drug customers.

 

[Autodidact]

the point is there are people who oppose teaching evolution...but they are expected to pay for teachers to teach evolution.

We have a democratic process for deciding what to teach in public school. Each individual doesn't have the right to decide whether they agree or disagree with each item. If a parent believes the holocaust never happened, they don't get to choose the history textbook; they have to home school. That's how it works with evolution. If we teach science, we teach it. If we teach Biology, then we teach it. If you're opposed to science, then home school your kid, or pay a private school.

 

[Autodidact]

Those who pay for a service should have a say in how that service is utilized, which is why a compulsory system fails and yes I’m opposed to public school because it forces everyone to pay for something many aren’t using. And the same goes for other “services” too.

In that case this discussion is irrelevant to you, since it's about how the public schools should operate.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I would say the removal of commandments gave way to a more liberal way of doing things. Liberty without rules is anarchy. That is the way liberals prefer it. So anarchy it is. Just remember to send your kids to school with a glock.

Todays kids are doing better then the ones who came along after in 1970's.
Rates of Violence are down and things are getting better.

The good old days where not as great as some would have us believe.

 

[linwood]

Todays kids are doing better then the ones who came along after in 1970's.
Rates of Violence are down and things are getting better.

The good old days where not as great as some would have us believe.

Damn, that`s good news.
The last few days have been an education in the pitfalls of "conventional wisdom" for me.

Thank you.

Youth Violence Project