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Prayer shaming, stopping mass shootings

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Insurance is required to protect property. It doesn't contribute to the safety of anyone. And we already have the gun laws on the books that would alleviate many of your fears if they would simply be enforced.
Insurance is useful when someone might incur a liability which they can't cover.
Suppose Bob accidentally hit's Pat's car, & causes Pat to need $1,000,000 of medical care.
But Bob is poor, & can't pay for it.
Bob's insurance policy will cover Pat's costs.
This is useful.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Auto insurance covers medical. And if someone does have a tendency to have accidents, show they are an unsafe driver, then they can lose both their insurance and their license. Since both are required to legally drive on the road then the loss of either is to help keep unsafe drivers off the road. Yes, some may break the law and drive anyway, but aren't we talking about people who obey the law here? The "law-abiding" citizens who give up driving when they don't have the legal right to?

If you have a gun and something were to happen with it, something dangerous, wrong, injurious, deadly, and you had your license or insurance stripped from you to have a gun...being a law-abiding citizen, would you give it up? Or would you, like people driving with no insurance or a revoked license, break the law because, well, who cares if you're not all that safe? You believe you're safe and that's all that matters right?

Still all the insurance in the world will prevent zero accidents; insurance has nothing to do with your safety. The only way to be truly safe on the highway is to ban cars. Can you see where this is leading concerning stricter and stricter gun control laws?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Are you sure about your stats?
Yes.
How does forcing me to wear a seat belt keep you safe?
It doesn't directly protect anyone, but it does help when it comes to medical costs.
Insurance is required to protect property. It doesn't contribute to the safety of anyone.
It protects our well being. Such as, if you hit my car with yours, and you total my car, I will be able to get money for a new car so I can continue to go to work, school, and other obligations. If you don't have insurance, I am entirely screwed.
And we already have the gun laws on the books that would alleviate many of your fears if they would simply be enforced.
Not really. In some instances it is still possible for violent offenders to get a gun, people are still not trained to use them, there is no database, and it is not mandatory to report lost and stolen guns.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
It protects our well being. Such as, if you hit my car with yours, and you total my car, I will be able to get money for a new car so I can continue to go to work, school, and other obligations. If you don't have insurance, I am entirely screwed.
It can also be a good protection for yourself in such instances if you have a good insurance company. I was once hit by this guy, and though he did have insurance, it was through a crappy company and they refused and delayed payments for both my medical and repairs. I went to my company and told them what was going on and they paid for my bills and went after the guy's company to retrieve payment.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Still all the insurance in the world will prevent zero accidents; insurance has nothing to do with your safety. The only way to be truly safe on the highway is to ban cars. Can you see where this is leading concerning stricter and stricter gun control laws?
Insurance is less about prevention (there is that too), & more about being able
to make victims (either the policy holder, or a 3rd party) whole from a loss.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Insurance is less about prevention (there is that too), & more about being able
to make victims (either the policy holder, or a 3rd party) whole from a loss.
Add in the incentive that, since you are required to carry it, and that if you do screw up when it comes to your driving record your rates go up, then driving safer is of benefit to you. I don't know many people who enjoy paying more money for their insurance, but if your driving record is bad then that is what happens.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Add in the incentive that, since you are required to carry it, and that if you do screw up when it comes to your driving record your rates go up, then driving safer is of benefit to you. I don't know many people who enjoy paying more money for their insurance, but if your driving record is bad then that is what happens.
Aye, insurance companies (if you use a good one) are a force for good, & also one's ally in avoiding trouble.
I like CNA & Hastings.
The worst I've ever dealt with was Allstate.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Aye, insurance companies (if you use a good one) are a force for good, & also one's ally in avoiding trouble.
I like CNA & Hastings.
The worst I've ever dealt with was Allstate.
Ironically, and maybe it just depends on your local agent and what they are willing to do, I have had Allstate for most of my life and they have always done me well. They were the ones that, when I came into their office with rejected medical bills in hand from my accident, took them from me and told me they would handle everything. And they did. My bills paid, my car fixed, quickly too. They turned around and went after the other guy's insurance company to recoup. I didn't have to do a thing. ;)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Ironically, and maybe it just depends on your local agent and what they are willing to do, I have had Allstate for most of my life and they have always done me well. They were the ones that, when I came into their office with rejected medical bills in hand from my accident, took them from me and told me they would handle everything. And they did. My bills paid, my car fixed, quickly too. They turned around and went after the other guy's insurance company to recoup. I didn't have to do a thing. ;)
A good agent is good.
(How's that for eloquence?)
But Allstate is a bad underwriter.
They fight legitimate claims to the point I hire a pro consultant to force them to pay.
This really became an issue when a group of student tenants did about $250,000 in damage to a house.
(They accidentally set it on fire.)
I buy a lot of kinds of insurance for different properties & clients.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Okay, so given that prayer alone is not enough, what do you intend to do about gun violence in America?
A national discussion about gun laws, terrorism control, etc.. In case you read me wrong. I'm not a pro-gun guy, just a pro-prayer guy. Prayer does not mean you shouldn't do things was the point I was making.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
A national discussion about gun laws, terrorism control, etc.. In case you read me wrong. I'm not a pro-gun guy, just a pro-prayer guy. Prayer does not mean you shouldn't do things was the point I was making.
It's actually really sad that we debate this "Muslim" issue, because the thing we should ALL be livid over is they it was known they had contacts with radical Muslims, they had contact with people the FBI was watching due to known extremist views, but they were not watching these people. We have had the TSA put their fingers down the pants of a child, we have police abusing and killing civilians constantly, we have cameras everywhere, the Fourth has little meaning or value today, we are giving up a ton of freedom for this supposed "Security," and this happens. We should demand accountability over this, but we're too ****ing busy debating about the media allegedly neglecting or being hesitant to mention they are Muslim, we're too busy debating gun control (very unusual to bring up during terrorism), and we're even debating about prayer. But we aren't even whispering about how our cell phone records have been monitored but we had some terrorist attacks that failed because of something the terrorist did, we had the Boston Marathon bombing, and now it seems like we have a mass shooting that may be directly tied to ISIS rather than the lone wolves who have been attacking recently.
It makes me believe that there is some truth in American exceptionalism...the exceptionalism comes when you realize just how stupid we are.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Thank you for that example of exactly what I was talking about. The notion that requiring people to behave responsibly is punishment is a large part of the problem.

But it's not the law-abiding person that is acting irresponsibly.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
But it's not the law-abiding person that is acting irresponsibly.
Every criminal was once law-abiding until they weren't anymore. Just because someone may be following the law now, it doesn't mean that they are as safe as they should be, as proficient as they should be, or has the full mental capabilities to remain law-abiding. Now, we may not be able to do all that much about the last one, not without an overhaul of our mental health system as well as mental health background checks to go with that, but we certainly can make sure that people are safer, trained better, and perhaps, just perhaps, limited in the types and/or amount of firearms they may have. That is to say, there is no rational legal reason for people to stockpile military grade weapons in their home. That right there speaks to a mental health issue (paranoia, conspiracies,...).

The idea that everything is fine as is and doesn't need, or at least could use, improvement is part of the problem. If someone is "law-abiding" as you put it, if they are responsible with guns and are not part of the problem, then why should they mind procedures being put in place to insure everyone else is as responsible as them?
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Every criminal was once law-abiding until they weren't anymore. Just because someone may be following the law now, it doesn't mean that they are as safe as they should be, as proficient as they should be, or has the full mental capabilities to remain law-abiding. Now, we may not be able to do all that much about the last one, not without an overhaul of our mental health system as well as mental health background checks to go with that, but we certainly can make sure that people are safer, trained better, and perhaps, just perhaps, limited in the types and/or amount of firearms they may have. That is to say, there is no rational legal reason for people to stockpile military grade weapons in their home. That right there speaks to a mental health issue (paranoia, conspiracies,...).

The idea that everything is fine as is and doesn't need, or at least could use, improvement is part of the problem. If someone is "law-abiding" as you put it, if they are responsible with guns and are not part of the problem, then why should they mind procedures being put in place to insure everyone else is as responsible as them?

Do you propose we ban steak knives because otherwise law-abiding spouses have used them on each other. Or vehicles due to previously law-abiding citizens have maliciously ran down others? Admit it, you simply have a control agenda you are trying to force on us.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
But it's not the law-abiding person that is acting irresponsibly.

Yes, it often is. But that is besides the point. This isn't about penalizing anyone. No more than registering your car is a penalty for those who drive responsibly. It's about holding people responsible for their behavior. Making them accountable. And having some safety rules that people should follow.

Right now everyone may talk about safety, but there are no laws on the books. And with 15,000 accidental shootings, 20,000 suicides and another 9000 murders, holding people responsible for keeping their guns locked up seems like the least we can do.

I would also point out that if people tow the line on this 'do nothing' stance about guns, the outcome is liable to be much more dramatic and punitive. I've said for years that the NRA is doing more harm than good for the guns owners in this country (myself included) by being against regulations of any kinds. It means they will not be at the table when the inevitable laws are written.
 
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