Prayer: what's it for, anyway?

[Lightkeeper]

However, there are people who do not know they are being prayed for and heal.

 

[Melody]

Melody-- keep in mind that this is the "General Debates" forum. People will challenge each others' beliefs here. Personal attacks are not allowed, but attacks on beliefs and ideas are allowed.

I think it's clear that prayer does have a psychological effect. Although many people of many religions believe according to doctrine that prayer will actually make external things happen (i.e. cure disease or bring rain) I don't think many people truly expect those things to happen as a result of prayer. I think when people pray, they do so as a psychological exercise for relaxation and clarity of mind.

Implying or calling someone delusional is a personal attack in my opinion.

As for people expecting things when we pray.....I can't speak for anyone but myself but I never ask God for a specific outcome. My prayers are always done with the belief that God will give me what I need and it may not be what I think I need. I give my concerns to God...and then leave them in His hands. For example, when I ask God to watch over my children and keep them safe, I always finish my prayer with "but whatever You will, Lord, because I believe You work for the greater good that I may not see."

Has everything gone perfectly in my life? No...but when things do go wrong (in my opinion), there is always something good that comes out of that disaster or hurt. Nobody would deny that the 9/11 attacks on the Twin Towers was anything short of horrific. However, some tremendous good did come out of that if the media is to be believed. People began to take a look at their lives and to question the reason for their existence. Many went back to church or were led to God. Volunteerism went up as people tried to find ways to be of benefit to their fellow man. I haven't seen any studies recently to know to what extent this has continued, but *some* people stayed with their new resolutions. Many people refocused their lives as they realized how shallow their current ones were.

If I could describe prayer with one word it would be "reaffirmation." Everytime I pray to God, I am reaffirming my belief in His existence and faith in his Word. It's not just a psychological exercise. I know something will happen. I just don't know what...but I know God is behind it and there is a reason for whatever happens.

 

[Melody]

I've never understood meditating without a belief in God. What are you contemplating? If you're nothing more than an accident of nature and your future is to be nothing but worm food, what's to contemplate?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Melody (I love your name by the way )

I've never understood meditating without a belief in God. What are you contemplating? If you're nothing more than an accident of nature and your future is to be nothing but worm food, what's to contemplate?

This is a mischaracterization. I do not beleive we are 'nothing more than an accident of nature'.

Let me explain. Most theists say that God's existence gives us humans purpose. Now ask yourself: why does God exist? What is His purpose? Most people would say "God doesn't need a purpose to exist, He just is...'I am that I am'." My personal view is that, just like the rest of the universe, I am. There is no 'why' and there was no 'accident'. Sounds kind of like Eastern philosophy, I guess.

Here's something to contemplate: what is the sound of one hand clapping?

Actually, in some ways I would think belief in God makes there nothing left to contemplate. No need to question why things are a certain way...God made it that way, end of contemplation. What will happen? It doesn't matter...God has it all figured out anyway, so no use in contemplating it...just sit back and wait for God's plan to unfold.

It's not just a psychological exercise. I know something will happen. I just don't know what...

Then again, you would know this much whether or not you prayed.

Lightkeeper--

However, there are people who do not know they are being prayed for and heal.

Are there any people who do not know they are being prayed for, who do not heal?

I just had an idea for a really interesting study! We could have 100 random patients who do not know they are being prayed for, and have some people pray for a random selection of 50 of those patients. Then we could see if the patients being prayed for do better than the patients not being prayed for. If we got those results, it would suggest something supernatural is going on. My hypothesis at the beginning of the experiment is that all the patients, those who are unknowingly being prayed for and those who aren't, will generally do the same. But we should test this hypothesis to see if it's true.

 

[Melody]

Now ask yourself: why does God exist? What is His purpose? Most people would say "God doesn't need a purpose to exist, He just is...'I am that I am'." My personal view is that, just like the rest of the universe, I am. There is no 'why' and there was no 'accident'.

Then what is the purpose of meditation? What is there to contemplate?

Actually, in some ways I would think belief in God makes there nothing left to contemplate. No need to question why things are a certain way...God made it that way, end of contemplation. What will happen? It doesn't matter...God has it all figured out anyway, so no use in contemplating it...just sit back and wait for God's plan to unfold.

To contemplate or meditate implies trying to understand something by focusing on it. When I pray I am not trying to understand God...I am worshipping Him and laying my concerns at His feet. I'm asking for His guidance which involves "listening" (that's a whole other conversation so I won't get into it here) for the answer and then acting upon it. Belief in God and prayer is not passive.

Melody

 

[Lightkeeper]

Melody (I love your name by the way )
This is a mischaracterization. I do not beleive we are 'nothing more than an accident of nature'.

Let me explain. Most theists say that God's existence gives us humans purpose. Now ask yourself: why does God exist? What is His purpose? Most people would say "God doesn't need a purpose to exist, He just is...'I am that I am'." My personal view is that, just like the rest of the universe, I am. There is no 'why' and there was no 'accident'. Sounds kind of like Eastern philosophy, I guess.

Here's something to contemplate: what is the sound of one hand clapping?

Actually, in some ways I would think belief in God makes there nothing left to contemplate. No need to question why things are a certain way...God made it that way, end of contemplation. What will happen? It doesn't matter...God has it all figured out anyway, so no use in contemplating it...just sit back and wait for God's plan to unfold.

Then again, you would know this much whether or not you prayed.

Lightkeeper--Are there any people who do not know they are being prayed for, who do not heal?

I just had an idea for a really interesting study! We could have 100 random patients who do not know they are being prayed for, and have some people pray for a random selection of 50 of those patients. Then we could see if the patients being prayed for do better than the patients not being prayed for. If we got those results, it would suggest something supernatural is going on. My hypothesis at the beginning of the experiment is that all the patients, those who are unknowingly being prayed for and those who aren't, will generally do the same. But we should test this hypothesis to see if it's true.

Actually, there have been many studies on this and you can probably find them on the internet.

I find this an unnecessary question:Lightkeeper--Are there any people who do not know they are being prayed for, who do not heal?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Lightkeeper--

I find this an unnecessary question:Lightkeeper--Are there any people who do not know they are being prayed for, who do not heal?

It was a rhetorical question. I was just demonstrating a point.

I'm skeptical that any scientific studies will demonstrate the supernatural healing powers of prayer as suggested in the experiment I outlined, as if there were, the supposed supernatural powers of prayer would be a scientific fact. But if I can find any credible peer reviewed studies, I'll let you guys know.

Then what is the purpose of meditation? What is there to contemplate?

The purpose of meditation is psychological. It makes people feel more relaxed, it releives stress, and it seems to make people happier in general--just like exercise. Here are a few things to contemplate: Why is the moon's orbit slowly growing larger? Why is the Earth's spin slowing down? Why do people who work around cows not die from smallpox? If we evolved from ancient primates, what will evolve from us? When is violence justified? Will we ever find intelligent life and, if so, what could we learn from them? What is time? Is there such a thing as a 'local reality'? What was Mars like millions of years ago, and was there life there?

And, of course....what is the sound of one hand clapping? I have plenty to contemplate without believing in God, Zeus, or Vishnu.

 

[Ceridwen018]

I always finish my prayer with "but whatever You will, Lord, because I believe You work for the greater good that I may not see."

This is very interesting to me. What is the point of prayer then, if god's just going to do his own will anyway? Do you think that your prayers sway him in his final decision? Then again, isn't the final decision (aka, plan) already made?

 

[Scott1]

This is very interesting to me. What is the point of prayer then, if god's just going to do his own will anyway? Do you think that your prayers sway him in his final decision? Then again, isn't the final decision (aka, plan) already made?

Well, first, to answer your question:
2659 We learn to pray at certain moments by hearing the Word of the Lord and sharing in his Paschal mystery, but his Spirit is offered us at all times, in the events of each day, to make prayer spring up from us. Jesus' teaching about praying to our Father is in the same vein as his teaching about providence:12 time is in the Father's hands; it is in the present that we encounter him, not yesterday nor tomorrow, but today: "O that today you would hearken to his voice! Harden not your hearts."13

Your question is really about pre-desination and free will. Prayer is a relationship with God the Father...... it is not about "getting stuff".....


2559 "Prayer is the raising of one's mind and heart to God or the requesting of good things from God."2 But when we pray, do we speak from the height of our pride and will, or "out of the depths" of a humble and contrite heart?3 He who humbles himself will be exalted;4 humility is the foundation of prayer, Only when we humbly acknowledge that "we do not know how to pray as we ought,"5 are we ready to receive freely the gift of prayer. "Man is a beggar before God."6

2560 "If you knew the gift of God!"7 The wonder of prayer is revealed beside the well where we come seeking water: there, Christ comes to meet every human being. It is he who first seeks us and asks us for a drink. Jesus thirsts; his asking arises from the depths of God's desire for us. Whether we realize it or not, prayer is the encounter of God's thirst with ours. God thirsts that we may thirst for him.8 2561 "You would have asked him, and he would have given you living water."9 Paradoxically our prayer of petition is a response to the plea of the living God: "They have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewn out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that can hold no water!"10 Prayer is the response of faith to the free promise of salvation and also a response of love to the thirst of the only Son of God.11

If you care to, you can read the Catechism teaching about the different types of prayer:http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p4s1c3a1.htm#2700

 

[Lightkeeper]

Lightkeeper-- It was a rhetorical question. I was just demonstrating a point.

I'm skeptical that any scientific studies will demonstrate the supernatural healing powers of prayer as suggested in the experiment I outlined, as if there were, the supposed supernatural powers of prayer would be a scientific fact. But if I can find any credible peer reviewed studies, I'll let you guys know.

The purpose of meditation is psychological. It makes people feel more relaxed, it releives stress, and it seems to make people happier in general--just like exercise. Here are a few things to contemplate: Why is the moon's orbit slowly growing larger? Why is the Earth's spin slowing down? Why do people who work around cows not die from smallpox? If we evolved from ancient primates, what will evolve from us? When is violence justified? Will we ever find intelligent life and, if so, what could we learn from them? What is time? Is there such a thing as a 'local reality'? What was Mars like millions of years ago, and was there life there?

And, of course....what is the sound of one hand clapping? I have plenty to contemplate without believing in God, Zeus, or Vishnu.

Why are you assuming Super Natural healing power? I have never mentioned it.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Sorry Lightkeeper. I thought you were suggesting that prayer can heal people even when they don't know they are being prayed for, and I assumed you meant prayer had some kind of supernatural power to do this. Well, we all know what happens when you assume... D'oh!

Whether we would consider it 'supernatural' or not I guess doesn't matter...either way, a test to see if prayer has this (supernatural?) power would be interesting.

 

[Pah]

I've never understood meditating without a belief in God. What are you contemplating? If you're nothing more than an accident of nature and your future is to be nothing but worm food, what's to contemplate?

Many of the 'talking" tapes I've listened to reply on humanistic values and "warm fuzzy bear hugs" to bring a person into him or her self. I used to listen to "Sounds of Space" (much nicer for me than sounds of nature) and concentrate on breathing, the act and the sensation of the warmth and chill of the air while I breathed. After some time of practise, what was experienced in meditation carried the same sense of wholeness and calm into a daily life.

Meditation is sometimes contemplating nothing and sometimes the extascy of chanting a mantra for only the value of the sound it produces.

-pah-

 

[Lightkeeper]

Sorry Lightkeeper. I thought you were suggesting that prayer can heal people even when they don't know they are being prayed for, and I assumed you meant prayer had some kind of supernatural power to do this. Well, we all know what happens when you assume... D'oh!

Whether we would consider it 'supernatural' or not I guess doesn't matter...either way, a test to see if prayer has this (supernatural?) power would be interesting.

There have been tests and you will probably find them on the internet. Let's say we agree there is no Old Man in the Sky. That doesn't necessarily mean there isn't something else.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I completely agree, but if there is something else, we should be able to detect it. After all, we can merely speculate on the existence of things we can't detect. I'm going to look for these tests right now, but I admit I'm rather skeptical that I will find anything that would suggest prayer, like Newtonian gravity, acts at a distance.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

http://atheism.about.com/gi/dynamic...cularhumanism.org/library/fi/avalos_17_3.html

http://atheism.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/march96/prayer.html

I searched the internet and found these two links on the first site that popped up...there were dozens of sites claiming that faith and prayer help in the healing process, but I couldn't find any studies that conclusively showed praying for something causes it to happen, in healing or otherwise. If prayer really did affect the material world in this way, it should be easily demonstrated to the skeptics.

As the article says at the very end of the second link, a good test would be to get a hundred amputees and (without their knowledge) have as many religious leaders and laypeople in the world as possible pray for their limbs to grow back.

 

[Hope]

I know someone who witnessed with her own eyes a miracle due to prayer. She saw food literally grow by itself--multiply itself, in other words. Kind of like the miracle Jesus did for the 5,000. And there were at least 2 other people with her who witnessed the same thing. They were working at some camp for kids, and one evening ddn't have enough dinner for everyone, so they asked God to provide, and He did! I'm sorry it's not something I can prove to you, but this person was extremely trustworthy. She would have no reason to make it up, especially if she wasn't the only one who witnessed it.

I think something we have to keep in mind when talking about prayer is that it's not the thing itself--the prayer itself--that does any 'magic.' There are no magic words, no magic spells. Like I said earlier, God is not comparable to a vending machine. We do not simply say to God, "God, do this, or this, or this." The key to prayer is the attitude of our heart. God apparently does not feel the need to prove Himself to the world merely through miracles. Even when Jesus performed miracles, there were still those who refused to believe. It's faith that pleases God. Faith in Him, faith in His goodness, faith that He is able to do far above what we could ever ask or think. Throughout the New Testament there are examples of Jesus healing people and commending them for their faith. To God, faith is a key virtue, and is definitely connected with prayer.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Hope-- If Jesus really did perform miracles for people, and they still didn't beleive him, then I can understand Jesus' frustration with their stubborn attitudes. However, Jesus has not performed any miracles for me, so it's not my 'attitude' that's the problem, the problem is I haven't been shown any miracles.

If God exists, why not answer my prayer to cure everyone of cancer right now? What would be the harm--I would beleive in God if that happened miraculously right now, and so would many people, thereby avoiding eternal hellfire, and it would decrease human suffering. If Zeus exists, why doesn't he strike me dead with a thunderbolt and send me to Hates right now after saying "Zeus is stupid, fat, and ugly!!"? The fact that neither event occurs suggests to me that neither deity exists.

 

[Runt]

I don't believe that there is a God standing by to hear our prayers and sometimes respond to them; however, I also recognize that IF there is a God my human shortcomings have probably led me erronously to this former conclusion. Therefore, I can acknowledge a few uses for prayer, some which exist even if there is NOT a God/Goddess/Gods or anything metaphysical, some which might exist if there are no deities but there is something metaphysical about the universe, and some which are only useful if there is a God/Goddess/Gods (and an assurance that he/she/it/they receive our prayers and care enough to sometimes respond).

Even if there is no metaphysical reality and no God:
-From a psychological standpoint, prayer can be useful because, in some cases, while an individual is shamelessly begging their deity of choice to solve some problem for them, they may actually be working out the problem in their own mind. (However, the problem is that they, having worked out the problem on their own, will then give all the credit for the solution to said deity instead of attributing it where is rightly belongs--with themselves.) However, despite this problem, the benefit still exists; the problem is solved no matter who you attribute the solution to.

Ex: Let's say our friend Bob, instead of just waiting for God to save him, had decided to pray to God. As the waters are rising he begins praying: "Dear supreme omnipotent God of the Hebrew Torah and Christian Bible, there's a storm coming. Please guide me. Your Faithful Servant, Bob. Amen." After a few seconds the little voice in his head that I call Reason and many theists call God begins speaking to him. "Bob, you idiot, if there is a bad storm coming, maybe you should get out of the house! You went fishing last month with your neighbor down the street; he has that cool rowboat, remember? Since you can see the light on in his house across the street and his figure in the window, you know he has not left yet. He's watching the water rise; he should be deciding to escape on that boat any minute now. Go outside and wait for him. He'll probably be by any second and he's a nice guy, he'll give you a lift." So Bob, taking "God's" (his own) advice, gets in the rowboat as his neighbor floats by, and survives. And this was because, while praying, he thought he heard a response from God that was really his own mind, and even though it wasn't God's response, it WAS logical and solved his problem.

-Prayer, in some cases, can also be considered focused meditation. Even without a God, it can lead to inspiration, a positive feeling of gratitude, a sense of peace, and a variety of other good things that, God or no God, are healthy/useful to us psychologically.

If there isn't a God but there is a metaphysical reality:
-Many people with metaphysical beliefs are of the opinion that willpower + focus= metaphysical results. If they are right, then even someone who is mistakenly praying to God can still effect results that come from outside of themselves (i.e. "from the universe") if they have enough willpower and focus when praying.

Ex: A young woman sits down in a circle she has drawn magickally, closes her eyes, and begins speaking to one of her Gods. "Great Goddess, you who are Mother to us all, bless me, your servant and priestess, with your presence. I have need of magick; I wish to have a child, but thus far have not become pregnant. Please give me a child to love and care for. As I will, so mote it be." As she prays the right combination of willpower (she REALLY wants to have a child) and focus (in her mind she thinks only of that desire to have a child and visualizes herself pregnant and then holding it in her arms) enables her thoughts to go out into the universe, and change it, therefore changing the woman herself, and her husband, and the circumstances surrounding their next union. Thus it is no mistake that when she and her husband next make love, he does not suffer from any of the sexual inabilities that sometimes afflict men, and it is the right time of the month for her, and a child results from the union.

If there is a God and there is a way for him/her/it/them to hear prayers:
I doubt I need to explain this one. If there is a deity or deities out there, and if they are able to hear prayers, then the purposes of prayer are many.
-They can simply be used to actively convey love, awe, fear, worship, (or any other emotion the deity(s) desire(s) from its servants) to God.
-They can be used with the above to gain the favor of said God(s).
-They can be used to ask for help or guidance, and if those listening are in the mood to respond, help or guidance may be received.
-They can be used to ask for something tangible (money, for example) that the person may not need (or even deserve) but which God, again if in the mood, may feel compelled to give them anyway.

 

[Hope]

Hope-- If Jesus really did perform miracles for people, and they still didn't beleive him, then I can understand Jesus' frustration with their stubborn attitudes. However, Jesus has not performed any miracles for me, so it's not my 'attitude' that's the problem, the problem is I haven't been shown any miracles.

If God exists, why not answer my prayer to cure everyone of cancer right now? What would be the harm--I would beleive in God if that happened miraculously right now, and so would many people, thereby avoiding eternal hellfire, and it would decrease human suffering. If Zeus exists, why doesn't he strike me dead with a thunderbolt and send me to Hates right now after saying "Zeus is stupid, fat, and ugly!!"? The fact that neither event occurs suggests to me that neither deity exists.

Hmmmm...I understand what you are saying. And please forgive me if it sounded as if I was 'attacking' anyone's 'attitude' in particular--that wasn't my intention. What I said about the attitude of one's heart applies just as much to myself as to anyone else. I ain't no saint! I simply think God honors those who truly seek Him--maybe that's a better way of saying it. And if you are seeking God, I say more power to ya!

Have you seen the movie Bruce Almighty with Jim Carrey? I think that movie gave a good illustration of why God doesn't answer everybody's prayers, exactly the way they want them, if at all sometimes. Your request that everyone be cured of cancer is indeed a noble one, one that seems to all outward appearances to be just the sort of prayer that God--if He is a God of love--would want to answer. But the scope of what God sees--His viewpoint--is far greater than what we can see. He sees the repercussions of giving us every single thing we want, whether it be good or bad. I wish people did not get cancer any more than you do. Life seems horribly unfair and cruel to so many people. One of the main reasons I used to hate God was because He allowed me to have a painful disease, a disease which I have had since I was 2 years old, and will have for the rest of my life. And as I get older it will most likely only get worse. I have had so many people pray for me, that God would heal me of this disease. Well, so far He hasn't! But isntead of being bitter about it, like I used to be, I see it now as simply my 'thorn in the flesh.' It helps keep me more grounded and humble than I would most likely be otherwise, and also makes me realize how much I need God. Do I wish I didn't have this disease? Of course. But I see now that God has His reasons for allowing things to happen, and just because I stiil have this disease doesn't mean God doesn't love me, or doesn't hear my prayers.

Maybe this helps some!