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Pre_destination. Does it Exist?

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
Same goes for theists. Even a belief in some type of afterlife is about finding meaning in your life here on earth.
Maybe... with a slight variation for me. I think in terms (sometimes anyway) that I am eternal right now, and that I don't age and time does not really exist. There is no before and there is no after.

"Life lived" is a false concept, because they are not separated. Life lived, implies it has boundaries, that if it can be lived, it can be un-lived. I don't subscribe to that.

So as a theist, the here and now is the same as eternity.
To an atheist, when death comes it is over.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Maybe... with a slight variation for me. I think in terms (sometimes anyway) that I am eternal right now, and that I don't age and time does not really exist. There is no before and there is no after.

"Life lived" is a false concept, because they are not separated. Life lived, implies it has boundaries, that if it can be lived, it can be un-lived. I don't subscribe to that.

So as a theist, the here and now is the same as eternity.
To an atheist, when death comes it is over.

What would stop an atheist from adopting your view and making "the here and now the same as eternity?"
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
I never said they find little meaning in life. I said they find little meaning beyond the here and now.


The here and now is life. The supernatural dimensions, present, past, and future all stands for the here and now, and even the later, and previous. Though not all people appreciate the fruits of life, I think it is improper to say that Athiests of all people, find little meaning in life ( the here and now) because everything they do involves the here and now.
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
What would stop an atheist from adopting your view and making "the here and now the same as eternity?"
Absolutely nothing which is why I don't consider myself religious or "ist" anything. Just a human trying to make sense of a bunch of information.

I think the difference between the two positions you are suggesting is one takes into account a relationship with God and experiences yet to unfold, and the other thinks nothing of such things. Both with different lives in many regards...
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
Maybe... with a slight variation for me. I think in terms (sometimes anyway) that I am eternal right now, and that I don't age and time does not really exist. There is no before and there is no after.

You may be eternal with the Earth, but by living standards you are not, for you do die a death. Time is a concept, but things do age, as old people gain wrinkles and gray hair, and salmon turn black instead of red. But there is a before and an after because things happen before, causing the 'thing' to happen after. But I understand what you mean, time is different everywhere because light hits things at different times, causing variance among age.

"Life lived" is a false concept, because they are not separated. Life lived, implies it has boundaries, that if it can be lived, it can be un-lived. I don't subscribe to that.

Describe unlive. Do you mean unlive like undead or unlive as if in die? If you mean unlived as in dying than of course it can happen. But you can live a life because living to me anyways, is being able to get through the hardships of life. So in my eyes, if you don't live life, then you are a boring blob who ,usually, is only interested in what they were taught, and not what they are capable of. We are bound to life though, of course it has boundries, you don't see giant dragons tearing holes through our demension do you? We were born into existence only knowing life, and we will die out of existence only knowing what life was like.

So as a theist, the here and now is the same as eternity.
To an atheist, when death comes it is over.

But death is eternal. Just like the blackness of space.
But the here is now, and moments die, so it can't be eternal because if it was, it would be neither here nor now, or later or previous, it would just be (eternal). But when we die our bodies just recycle into the Earth, and the Earth is not eternal, so from an Atheistic viewpoint, it is contradiction. Because we don't just live we strive.

If we are eternal what about the other creatures?
You can say we remember moments, but we also forget them.
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
The here and now is life. The supernatural dimensions, present, past, and future all stands for the here and now, and even the later, and previous. Though not all people appreciate the fruits of life, I think it is improper to say that Athiests of all people, find little meaning in life ( the here and now) because everything they do involves the here and now.
Again, Atheists find GREAT meaning in life here and now. You misread me.
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
I didn't misread, you said Atheists find little meaning between the here and now.
No I did not. Try again. I said they find little meaning "beyond" not between, there here and now. Then ATS pointed out that he likes the past and future as well.

Please read more carefully, they mean two very different things.
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
Science tells us that the blackness of space is probably not eternal, but simply expanding matter and energy.


But see how you separated the two, blackness of space. They are two different things.The blackness may expand with the space, but would it still be there if space didn't exist? If the universe is expanding there is obviously an energetic force behind it, or space is just infinite with blackness. But either way space would be eternal because energy cannot be destroyed. And the only thing after something dies is nothing, so an object that disintegrates in the space, becomes the space itself.

Space may not be eternal, but the absence in which it dwells is.
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
No I did not. Try again. I said they find little meaning "beyond" not between, there here and now. Then ATS pointed out that he likes the past and future as well.

Please read more carefully, they mean two very different things.


What would it matter if it is between or beyond? As you may be between two things, you are beyond one thing. I know what I read, maybe the way I interperated it is different than what you meant. Anyways of course they find meaning 'beyond' the here and now, for everything they do, they do in attempt to understand and help the future.
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
But see how you separated the two, blackness of space. They are two different things.The blackness may expand with the space, but would it still be there if space didn't exist? If the universe is expanding there is obviously an energetic force behind it, or space is just infinite with blackness. But either way space would be eternal because energy cannot be destroyed. And the only thing after something dies is nothing, so an object that disintegrates in the space, becomes the space itself.

Space may not be eternal, but the absence in which it dwells is.
Non-sense. Nothing is "behind" anything, if anything it is within it. The energy that expands the universe is still within the universe. Nothing, or at least ZERO evidence is available to suggest anything is outside of the universe, unless you go to a spiritual book and find the supernatural.
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
What would it matter if it is between or beyond? As you may be between two things, you are beyond one thing. I know what I read, maybe the way I interperated it is different than what you meant. Anyways of course they find meaning 'beyond' the here and now, for everything they do, they do in attempt to understand and help the future.
Wow, you like to create arguments out of everything. I appreciate the attention, but what really is the point? You are definitely, not probably misinterpreting what I am writing.
If that is the case, asking questions would be helpful, instead of assuming.
Either way, this conversation is of little importance to me, because it is completely off-topic to the OP.
 

xkatz

Well-Known Member
I believe in, to an extent, fate. However I do not think it is pre-determined, but rather a mixture of chance, free-will, and self.
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
Non-sense. Nothing is "behind" anything, if anything it is within it. The energy that expands the universe is still within the universe. Nothing, or at least ZERO evidence is available to suggest anything is outside of the universe, unless you go to a spiritual book and find the supernatural.


See I never said that nothing is 'behind' anything, because according to the big bang theory, everything was created at the same time right? The only things that are behind us are the things that have already happened. What is outside of the universe? More space? Alternate dimensions? If there is that, which there is theorys too, then of course there is space outside of the universe, even if it doesn't expand, contract, etc. It is still there.

Candy is inside or within a wrapper, but it is also behind it.

There still is theories of bubble space in hyper space, and universes that bounce off each other and create more universes, and wormholes that lead to alternate dimensions.

But on our scale (the small one compared to the universes) things happen before and after.

Franklin Roosevelt died on April 12th, 1945. He didn't die now, or in the future, he died in the past. The past is behind us, because it is not in front of us (unless we don't learn from our mistakes).
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
Wow, you like to create arguments out of everything. I appreciate the attention, but what really is the point? You are definitely, not probably misinterpreting what I am writing.
If that is the case, asking questions would be helpful, instead of assuming.
Either way, this conversation is of little importance to me, because it is completely off-topic to the OP.


I created the argument that predestination occurs because we make it.

The point is your words have more than 'your' version of the meaning. I simply stated what I thought, and what I thought you meant, you turned it into an argument.

You said that you believe you are eternal and that time doesn't really exist.
But then you wouldn't be eternal, because eternal is a form a time. You would just be. Which you are for now, but you will lose.

We simply are and you cannot be what you are not.

Don't manipulate an open conversation, I argue and debate because I learn more than just reading what is told to me.
 
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Orias

Left Hand Path
I believe in, to an extent, fate. However I do not think it is pre-determined, but rather a mixture of chance, free-will, and self.


I agree with you, but don't you think that ourselfs have somthing to do with determining what happens to us?
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
I don't believe in a destination locked by the world or a god; however, we set our destinations first subconsciously and some of us then adjust it or change it consciously.

The subconscious destination is set by genetic's and our social enviroment.

As we gain knowledge and control of our emotions and social enviroment we have the ability to change the destination.
 
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