Predestination

[gmelrod]

You've brought up a significant issue. It's extremely important and I've attempted to deal it out on philosophyforchristians.blogspot.com .
The constructs of philosophy -- determinism and freedom -- are not really suitable for describing theological concepts. Hence we have a problem, not only in how people outside of Christianity see these things discuss, but even within as philosophical theology takes hold more and more.

I agree (as a philosophy student first and foremost) that the dilemma of freedom and determinism posses a threat to classic theology. I think however that modern quantum theory could provide an escape. On the smallest level truly random uncaused events may be possible subject only to the loose guide of probability. Nothing is impossible just very unlikely. As these quantem events accumulate on the level of human awareness they probabilities become solid enough to appear as solid fact. While I am not at all a mathematician or quantum physicist this seems a reasonable account. The question remains though are quantum effects strong enough in the workings of the brain to allow for unlikely actions? I think this problem is still being studied. One problem is that our understanding of the brain is so new and our instaments for studying it are not sensitive enough yet. But that is science.

The multiverse is ruled by chaos - no need for an omniscient god.

While the multiverse theory is appealing on some levels it does raise other theological questions. Does Christ have to be sacrificed in all realities. Is there a Bible in all realities. Is it the same in ours as in others. If not which one is true. But (outside of science fiction of which I am a fan) we have no way to examine these alternate realities so to all appearences we are alone.

Would foreknowledge contradict free will?

I think that foreknowledge which is produced scientificly is like any other kind of knowledge is not absolute. We can never be 100% certain in our predictions of any kind. So foreknowledge is like any other science, subject to change and failure. Revealed forknowledge like profecy is subject to other criticisms chiefly, how do you know that you are not delusoinal and decieved by your malfunctioning senses.

Oh and this thread began because the subject came up in another thread and it was suggested that I move it elsewhere. So I started a new one. The same issues keep geting brought up but are still fun to debate.

While no systematic is perfect, Calvinism certainly avoids the Pelagian and Socinian tendencies of Arminian systems. And it does put the election, predestination, and foreknowledge into a coherent bundle.

This sounds very smart but I am not familier with the terms. Though I think that Arminianism is an early form of religious tolerence. Can you help me out CRB?

 

[McBell]

1. Matthew 7:21 (Whole Chapter)
   "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Romans 8:29 (Whole Chapter)

1. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
2. Romans 8:30 (Whole Chapter)
   And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
3. Ephesians 1:5 (Whole Chapter)
   he [ Or sight in love. 5 He] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
4. Ephesians 1:11 (Whole Chapter)
   In him we were also chosen, [ Or were made heirs] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

1 Tim. 2:1-11
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

1 Tim. 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Heb. 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man

Rom. 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Rom 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.



If the "chosen few" are only the "elect," then who are the many "called," if many means elect?
Are only few elect chosen of the many elect who are called?
Moreover, If Romans 5:15 and 19 are taken in the context of the repeated all's, of Romans 5:1-18, and the many being made righteous, refers only to the "elect" and not "all" men, then did one man's disobedience make sinners of only the many "elect" and not make sinners of all men?

 

[wizanda]

Not everyone gets into Oneness (heaven)……
It takes believing in it, achieving it and to be 100% in all your actions and thoughts to achieve it.

You don’t get into heaven from just following any prophet, Christ, Buddhi’s etc, you get in through doing as they did!
Heaven contains shepherd and farmers not sheep and goats.

Oneness does not contain any thing of lower dimension, or evil (opposite to live), as the main thing opposed to oneness is EGO (lowest dimension).

Desire will not allow people to enter either, it is about 99% devotion and self sacrifice to give up everything, other then oneness = no EGO.

Predestination is slight error of certain prophets, who knew they were going, yet didn’t make it clear enough to others; it was as they put in a lot of works to oneness and so enlightened others also.

There is no easy ride (narrow is the gate)! :angel2:

 

[bible truth]

God' s choice is not based on anything in us (believers). God doesn't choose us based us choosing Him (false doctrine of self-election).

Exodus 33:19, Mat 20:5, John 15:16, Acts 13:48, Romans 9:11-13, 16, Romans 9:20-21,23; Romans 11:5-6; Romans 11:7; Romans 11:33-36; 1 Cor 1:27-29; Ephesians 1:4-5, 11-12; 1 Thes 1:4-5; 2 Thes 2:13; 2 Tim 2:10; James 2:5; 2 Peter 1:10; Rev 13:8;

Christ died for the elect of God only.

Mat 1:21; Romans 3:24; Rom 5:8-9; Rom 5:10; Gal 1:3-4; Col 1:21-22; 1 Tim 1:15; Titus 2;13-14; Hebrews 9:12; 1 Peter 3:18; Mat 20:28; Math 26:28; John 6:36-40; John 10:11,14-15, 24-26; John 11:50-52; John 17:1-2, 4, 9-11; Acts 20:28; Romans 5:19; Romans 8:32-34; Ephesians 1:4-5,7; Ephesians 5;25-27; Hebrews 9:15; Hebrews 9:28, Rev 5:9; Isiah 65;1; Ezekel 11:19;Ezekel 37:3-9; Daneil 4:35...to start with...lol.

There are many..many more verses teaching that God is soveriegn in saving a people to Himself. Both God and man cannot both be soveriegn at the same time! You either believe in the soveriegnty of God, or the soveriegnt of man in regards to redemption and salvation of sinners. - BT

 

[Wandered Off]

So what's the point of the Great Commission? What's the point of behaving in accordance with God's other alleged commands? Neither will impact your 'predestiny'. If you are elect, then you will be elect irrespective of your behavior, right?

 

[bible truth]

So what's the point of the Great Commission? What's the point of behaving in accordance with God's other alleged commands? Neither will impact your 'predestiny'. If you are elect, then you will be elect irrespective of your behavior, right?

That's a great question Wandered Off. The great evangelist, missionaries, and preachers throughout church history embraced biblical predestination.

In the Bible, God reveals that He predestined certain sinners to be redeemed (Ephesians 1). God pre-ordained the end. In addition, God ordained the MEANS to accomplish His plan or His predetermined end. God sent His Son to redeem the elect through the person and work of Christ so that He could redeem the elect. God also chose the foolishness of preaching Christ crucified as the instrument to save His elect (Rom 10). God provides the means to accomplish His will. The Great Commission is part of God's plan of redeeming His elect. Christians do not know who are the elect. God chooses the foolish things of the world to shame to wise (1 Cor 1). Therefore, we are commanded to preach the gospel to everyone. Actually, God commands everyone, everywhere to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. The only ones who truly repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ are the elect of God, through His sovereign grace and the power of God the Holy Spirit. God will save all that He intends to save. That number of redeemed sinners was predetermined before the foundations of the world.

Within saving a people to Himself, God will make sinners holy in position and in practice. God transforms wretched sinners in the image of His Son through transformation of the renewing of their minds, through the process of santcification (Romans 12). A converted Christian is being changed by God the Holy Spirit. The Christian will begin to hate his personal sins and have a change of heart for affection of the things of God and a growing affection of God Himself. The things of the world looses it's desire and affection to the converted Christian...over time.

 

[Wandered Off]

God ordained the MEANS to accomplish His plan or His predetermined end.

Having a "means" goes against the "pre" part of predestination. If you're one of the "Elect", then it doesn't matter one bit whether some great evangelists, missionaries, and preachers throughout church history preach to you or what kind of behavior you undertake, because your destination is supposedly presettled. Your salvation cannot possibly depend on "means" when it is preordained.

Evangelism and any other behavior on your part or anyone else's (excluding God) is completely unnecessary for salvation if it is predestined.

I would go farther to say that all temporal existence is a complete waste of time in that scenario.

 

[McBell]

God' s choice is not based on anything in us (believers). God doesn't choose us based us choosing Him (false doctrine of self-election).

Exodus 33:19, Mat 20:5, John 15:16, Acts 13:48, Romans 9:11-13, 16, Romans 9:20-21,23; Romans 11:5-6; Romans 11:7; Romans 11:33-36; 1 Cor 1:27-29; Ephesians 1:4-5, 11-12; 1 Thes 1:4-5; 2 Thes 2:13; 2 Tim 2:10; James 2:5; 2 Peter 1:10; Rev 13:8;

Christ died for the elect of God only.

Mat 1:21; Romans 3:24; Rom 5:8-9; Rom 5:10; Gal 1:3-4; Col 1:21-22; 1 Tim 1:15; Titus 2;13-14; Hebrews 9:12; 1 Peter 3:18; Mat 20:28; Math 26:28; John 6:36-40; John 10:11,14-15, 24-26; John 11:50-52; John 17:1-2, 4, 9-11; Acts 20:28; Romans 5:19; Romans 8:32-34; Ephesians 1:4-5,7; Ephesians 5;25-27; Hebrews 9:15; Hebrews 9:28, Rev 5:9; Isiah 65;1; Ezekel 11:19;Ezekel 37:3-9; Daneil 4:35...to start with...lol.

There are many..many more verses teaching that God is soveriegn in saving a people to Himself. Both God and man cannot both be soveriegn at the same time! You either believe in the soveriegnty of God, or the soveriegnt of man in regards to redemption and salvation of sinners. - BT

Please be so kind as to respond to my post.
thank you.

 

[bible truth]

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

1 Tim. 2:1-11
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

1 Tim. 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Heb. 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man

Rom. 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Rom 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.



If the "chosen few" are only the "elect," then who are the many "called," if many means elect?
Are only few elect chosen of the many elect who are called?
Moreover, If Romans 5:15 and 19 are taken in the context of the repeated all's, of Romans 5:1-18, and the many being made righteous, refers only to the "elect" and not "all" men, then did one man's disobedience make sinners of only the many "elect" and not make sinners of all men?

If the "chosen few" are only the "elect," then who are the many "called," if many means elect? Within that Bible verse, the called is an outward call of all who are hearing the gospel proclaimed. The elect are the ones who receive the gospel being prolclaimed (consider Acts 13:48).

Are only few elect chosen of the many elect who are called? Within that context..I think I understand what you are saying..all the elect are chosen (romans 8:28-31).


Romans 5:1-18, and the many being made righteous, refers only to the "elect" and not "all" men, then did one man's disobedience make sinners of only the many "elect" and not make sinners of all men?[/quote] Please see 1 cor 15:22 "for as in Adam, all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Please let me know if you need more information - BT

 

[logician]

Chaos theory dooms predestination - true prophets cannot exist. In any case I prefer a world not composed of pre-programmed robots.

 

[bible truth]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51405

I welcome all to read along on the 'one on one debate on Calvinism' between two Christian brothers. There are many links to the Thread on the subject of predestination, as well as Calvinism in general. An Atheist rejects predestination because he does not believe in God. A theist who rejects predestination will have difficulties accepting the God of the Bible through written revelation. You cannot make an uninformed decision on a very deep and profound subject. If you have any questions after you read the one on one Calvinism debate, post them here and I will answer them if you want me to. - BT

 

[McBell]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51405

I welcome all to read along on the 'one on one debate on Calvinism' between two Christian brothers. There are many links to the Thread on the subject of predestination, as well as Calvinism in general. An Atheist rejects predestination because he does not believe in God. A theist who rejects predestination will have difficulties accepting the God of the Bible through written revelation. You cannot make an uninformed decision on a very deep and profound subject. If you have any questions after you read the one on one Calvinism debate, post them here and I will answer them if you want me to. - BT

I am actually waiting for the 'debate' to begin.
Thus far all you have done is present the opinions of others.
Combine that with your cookie cutter answers to my questions in this thread, I strongly suspect that *Paul* is actually going to debate every popular Calvinist who's opinion you can copy/paste instead of you.

 

[Katzpur]

A theist who rejects predestination will have difficulties accepting the God of the Bible through written revelation.

I'm a theist and I have no trouble whatsoever accepting the God of the Bible. It's the God of the Creeds I have trouble accepting.

You cannot make an uninformed decision on a very deep and profound subject.

By "uninformed," you obviously mean any point of view which differs from yours. I consider myself to be every bit as informed on this subject as you are.

 

[matthew.william]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51405

I welcome all to read along on the 'one on one debate on Calvinism' between two Christian brothers. There are many links to the Thread on the subject of predestination, as well as Calvinism in general. An Atheist rejects predestination because he does not believe in God. A theist who rejects predestination will have difficulties accepting the God of the Bible through written revelation. You cannot make an uninformed decision on a very deep and profound subject. If you have any questions after you read the one on one Calvinism debate, post them here and I will answer them if you want me to. - BT

If there is no free will, than all that happens is God's Will, so my question is; is there injustice in the world? Everyone sins because God ordained them to? And then they who are not elected are damned? Do you believe we are automatons?

~matthew.william~

 

[gmelrod]

I have not been on for a while and I am glad to see that the thread has continued in my absence. I think the question of predestination comes down to a single issue

If people are chosen before birth for entrance into heaven then why would they live a moral life? If they do so because God made them or they were compeled/transformed by the holy spirit then they have no freedom of the will. If we are not free to do good then we are not free to do evil. If we are not free to do evil then we are not free to sin. The idea of sin is predicated on the idea that we could do otherwise. If I did the only thing I could possibly do then it was not a sin. If they cannot sin they cannot be condemned.

Up to this point I have not posted bible verses except in responce to others postings. But I did some research and came across one I could not resist. My claim is that, through the power of God's grace all people who believe in Jesus will be forgiven of their sins and granted entrance into heaven. People do not move themselves to heaven. Without God's loving grace no amount of belief would be sufficent. So God's power is superior. But faith is also necessary. That faith must be the result of a free choice, if it is not free, if it is somehow compelled then it is of no value. The parts that are underlined I find to be especialy relevant.

Romans 3:21-26
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

This text speaks directly to salvation. If there was no way that some people could come to the father then why would it saw "all who believe." We can tell that since "all have sinned" the is no person on earth who is worthy of eternal life. It is only through God's grace and Christ's sacrifice on the cross that we can be saved. But to gain that rightousness we must believe.

The last question for me then is do people have a choice in their belief. Are there some people who God has created so that they will believe and others he made so that they will not? That does not seem fair to me. If God loves us all and is full of mercy for us then how could he give salvation to some and not all. Did not Christ die to wash away all of our sins?

 

[!Fluffy!]

I have not been on for a while and I am glad to see that the thread has continued in my absence. I think the question of predestination comes down to a single issue

If people are chosen before birth for entrance into heaven then why would they live a moral life? If they do so because God made them or they were compeled/transformed by the holy spirit then they have no freedom of the will. If we are not free to do good then we are not free to do evil. If we are not free to do evil then we are not free to sin. The idea of sin is predicated on the idea that we could do otherwise. If I did the only thing I could possibly do then it was not a sin. If they cannot sin they cannot be condemned.

Up to this point I have not posted bible verses except in responce to others postings. But I did some research and came across one I could not resist. My claim is that, through the power of God's grace all people who believe in Jesus will be forgiven of their sins and granted entrance into heaven. People do not move themselves to heaven. Without God's loving grace no amount of belief would be sufficent. So God's power is superior. But faith is also necessary. That faith must be the result of a free choice, if it is not free, if it is somehow compelled then it is of no value. The parts that are underlined I find to be especialy relevant.

Romans 3:21-26
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

This text speaks directly to salvation. If there was no way that some people could come to the father then why would it saw "all who believe." We can tell that since "all have sinned" the is no person on earth who is worthy of eternal life. It is only through God's grace and Christ's sacrifice on the cross that we can be saved. But to gain that rightousness we must believe.

The last question for me then is do people have a choice in their belief. Are there some people who God has created so that they will believe and others he made so that they will not? That does not seem fair to me. If God loves us all and is full of mercy for us then how could he give salvation to some and not all. Did not Christ die to wash away all of our sins?

If at the point when God created me,
a creature of free will
He could see my entire future and
He saw me rejecting Him at every opportunity
until the end of my life,
Would He then un-make me?
or would He allow me to draw that first breath and live
my life anyway?

Which would be more fair?

 

[gmelrod]

If at the point when God created me,
a creature of free will
He could see my entire future and
He saw me rejecting Him at every opportunity
until the end of my life,
Would He then un-make me?
or would He allow me to draw that first breath and live
my life anyway?

Which would be more fair?

If my future can be seen am I free? If every action I make is known and anticipated in a linear sense how can I be said to have any freedom. I am only free if I could have done otherwise. I think that God can see every action we could take. Every choice in our life and its consequences are available to God's infinte understanding. But what we actualy do remains up to us. God shows us the way to him and hopes that we will get there. The rest is up to us. (Thats what I think anyway )

 

[Mustard Seed]

If you have any questions after you read the one on one Calvinism debate, post them here and I will answer them if you want me to. - BT

Isn't that great, well I have a question BT and I want you to answer it for me!


Originally posted by you, in the one on one debate thread:

I have to disagree with your conclusion that we can't learn from God's elect pastors and teachers from the past.

First off, your supposed to be a "Bible Only" man but it looks as if you look to others for guidance. Before you tell me that they are "God's Elect," I will ask...how do you know who God's elect our? What measures do you use to discern the truth? The last question is a very important one.

Thanks,

darnell

 

[!Fluffy!]

If my future can be seen, am I free? Of course.

I just don't get how "knowing/seeing" = "forcing".
Being able to see the future isn't the same as making it happen, is it?

God does not live in time as we do, does he?
He's outside of time, which we cannot fathom.
Else, how could he be the Eternal God, the alpha and omega? The "I AM"?
So, how could he not "see" everything that is done or will be done?
There are many instances of his ability to see the future mentioned in the Bible.
It would not make sense if He could see some of it but not all.

If I see into the future, and see you take the bus tomorrow
instead of the car,
Have I somehow magically removed your ability to choose to do so at that moment, just by seeing you do it? No. I have merely stepped out of time as WE know it and seen the future.

If you have a child, do you know it is going to disobey you?
Of course it will, if capable of choice. And you'll gladly have the child anyway.

 

[gmelrod]

Ok I can accept our point about God laying outside the bounds of space or time and so not bound by any particular causality. Given that god knows what will happen does that mean we are predestined? I think it does not. God knows what will hapen but we are still free actors. Those who go to heaven are saved because of their faith. Had they not had faith they would not have gone to heaven. God being omnicient knew what they would do but did not make them do it.

(God's existence outside of space and time rasies the question of if he is outside of good or evil. Can God do wrong? But that is for another post.)