"Premarital Sex is Not a Sin Against God"

[Skwim]

NOTE
The title of this thread is taken from the title of the quoted material below, which is part of an article that addresses premarital sex in the context of god and the Bible. It doesn't necessarily represent my thoughts, but because they seemingly contradict the teachings of most Christians I wonder just what you think of their accuracy, and where they may have gone astray.
(To read the entire article click the "source" at the end.)

"The Bible does not forbid premarital sex.

There is no passage of the Bible that references premarital sex as a sin against God. The association between sin and premarital sex is a new Christian idea. The only possible reference to premarital sex being a sin in the Bible is in the New Testament. This premise although, is generally dismissed by theologians because the Greek word pornei, or sexual immorality is commonly incorrectly translated into the English word fornication.

In Biblical times women were the owned property of a man. Men ruled over women and their children. Women had very few, if any, rights, and men often bought women from their families or at an auction, usually at age twelve and a half. The fathers owned the women (daughters, wives, concubines, handmaidens, servants etc.) and if you wanted to have intercourse with one of his properties, then you had to ask his permission.
If a father sold a daughter, he would get more money for her if she was a virgin. Non-virgins were less expensive to buy. If a man purchased a daughter at a virgin price, and she was not, or she did not bleed during intercourse, then he could return her to her father and get his money back.

Most marriages were arranged for financial reasons. Many couples never even met until the day of the marriage. On the day of marriage the proposed husband would give a dowry, or monetary compensation, to the father of a bride. The price of the dowry was different from woman to woman, was determined by the father, and was based on the woman's beauty, ability to bear children, strength, household skills, and status as a virgin.
In the Old Testament, many verses that people site for being against premarital sex are actual verses against stealing another man's property.

In Exodus 22:16 - 17, "If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and lies with her, he must pay the bride-price for her, and she will be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride-price for virgins." According to this, the only reason any wrong was done is because the father of the woman lost money when the man and the woman consented to having premarital sex without her father's knowledge. This passage showed that through premarital sex, the man is actually stealing from the woman's father, the difference in value between her as a virgin and her as a nonvirgin. It does not show that premarital sex is wrong.

In Deuteronomy 22:28 - 29 it says, "If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days." This shows that forced premarital sex, or rape is also stealing, but unlike the book of exodus, this trespass provides a punishment, as the male rapist not only stole from the woman herself but from the woman's father as well.

Another example of premarital sex in the Old Testament is given in Deuteronomy 21:10. This is a case in which a man takes a woman captive and then if he wants to make her his wife he must follow the conditions it sets forth, and then have intercourse with her. Then, if she is found to be desirable he has the option of marrying her or sending her away. This passage not only possibly condones premarital sex, but maybe even divorce as well.

Even the 10 Commandments don't forbid premarital sex. Most Christians would classify premarital sex under the seventh commandment, "Thou shall not commit adultery," but adultery is defined as: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not their spouse. If neither persons are married, it cannot be adultery."
source​

 

[rusra02]

I think the writer is choosing to ignore the many Scriptures that specifically condemn fornication. Hebrews 13:4, for example; "Let marriage be honorable among all, and let the marriage bed be without defilement, for God will judge sexually immoral people and adulterers."
1 Corinthians 7:1,2 says; " concerning the things about which you wrote, it is better for a man not to touch a woman; but because of the prevalence of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife and each woman have her own husband." Verses 8 and 9 state: "Now I say to those who are unmarried and to the widows that it is better for them if they remain as I am. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry, for it is better to marry than to be inflamed with passion. Rather than commit sexual immorality, the Bible urges single ones to marry.
1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 is also relevant: "For this is the will of God, that you should be holy and abstain from sexual immorality. Each one of you should know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not with greedy, uncontrolled sexual passion like the nations have that do not know God."

 

[Thanda]

NOTE
The title of this thread is taken from the title of the quoted material below, which is part of an article that addresses premarital sex in the context of god and the Bible. It doesn't necessarily represent my thoughts, but because they seemingly contradict the teachings of most Christians I wonder just what you think of their accuracy, and where they may have gone astray.
(To read the entire article click the "source" at the end.)

"The Bible does not forbid premarital sex.

There is no passage of the Bible that references premarital sex as a sin against God. The association between sin and premarital sex is a new Christian idea. The only possible reference to premarital sex being a sin in the Bible is in the New Testament. This premise although, is generally dismissed by theologians because the Greek word pornei, or sexual immorality is commonly incorrectly translated into the English word fornication.

In Biblical times women were the owned property of a man. Men ruled over women and their children. Women had very few, if any, rights, and men often bought women from their families or at an auction, usually at age twelve and a half. The fathers owned the women (daughters, wives, concubines, handmaidens, servants etc.) and if you wanted to have intercourse with one of his properties, then you had to ask his permission.
If a father sold a daughter, he would get more money for her if she was a virgin. Non-virgins were less expensive to buy. If a man purchased a daughter at a virgin price, and she was not, or she did not bleed during intercourse, then he could return her to her father and get his money back.

Most marriages were arranged for financial reasons. Many couples never even met until the day of the marriage. On the day of marriage the proposed husband would give a dowry, or monetary compensation, to the father of a bride. The price of the dowry was different from woman to woman, was determined by the father, and was based on the woman's beauty, ability to bear children, strength, household skills, and status as a virgin.
In the Old Testament, many verses that people site for being against premarital sex are actual verses against stealing another man's property.

In Exodus 22:16 - 17, "If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and lies with her, he must pay the bride-price for her, and she will be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride-price for virgins." According to this, the only reason any wrong was done is because the father of the woman lost money when the man and the woman consented to having premarital sex without her father's knowledge. This passage showed that through premarital sex, the man is actually stealing from the woman's father, the difference in value between her as a virgin and her as a nonvirgin. It does not show that premarital sex is wrong.

In Deuteronomy 22:28 - 29 it says, "If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days." This shows that forced premarital sex, or rape is also stealing, but unlike the book of exodus, this trespass provides a punishment, as the male rapist not only stole from the woman herself but from the woman's father as well.

Another example of premarital sex in the Old Testament is given in Deuteronomy 21:10. This is a case in which a man takes a woman captive and then if he wants to make her his wife he must follow the conditions it sets forth, and then have intercourse with her. Then, if she is found to be desirable he has the option of marrying her or sending her away. This passage not only possibly condones premarital sex, but maybe even divorce as well.

Even the 10 Commandments don't forbid premarital sex. Most Christians would classify premarital sex under the seventh commandment, "Thou shall not commit adultery," but adultery is defined as: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not their spouse. If neither persons are married, it cannot be adultery."
source​

A very poor article. Most of it is spent speculating on women's ancient status than actually discussing premarital sex. Furthermore since there were no contraceptives in ancient days, it is very unlikely that an ancient document like the Bible would not condemn premarital sex.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I think the writer is choosing to ignore the many Scriptures that specifically condemn fornication.

I think Paul is forgetting that Jesus descends from at least one hooker and one woman pretending to be one.

Rather than commit sexual immorality, the Bible urges single ones to marry.

Define sexual immorality and how that relates to marriage. IIRC, spousal rape wasn't even a crime until relatively recently....

I mean, I see maybe Paul, your fav author, is talking about not doing freaky crap in the bedroom, but since for him all sex is icky anyway, I'm more inclined to go ask people with healthy sexual relationships. It's like when people ask me about relationships. Dude, I'm from an abusive family and I definitely have issues. Go ask someone else....

 

[`mud]

Quote: " Saul/Paul",
where were the preachers in those days ?
~
'mud

 

[Rise]

Scriptures like what Rusra posted make the prohibition against premartial sex indisputable.

What you often find in cases like this, where people willfully distort scriptures that are very clear, is because they are motivated by a desire to justify engaging in a lifestyle of sin and not having to admit that God forbids it.

 

[Skwim]

A very poor article. Most of it is spent speculating on women's ancient status than actually discussing premarital sex. Furthermore since there were no contraceptives in ancient days, it is very unlikely that an ancient document like the Bible would not condemn premarital sex.

Then why doesn't it?


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[james2ko]

Then why doesn't it?

The OT discourages the behavior and Paul labels it as a immoral. Rusra02 gave you a prime example in 1 Co 7:1-2 above, where sex outside of marriage is clearly labeled as sexually immoral.

 

[Skwim]

I think the writer is choosing to ignore the many Scriptures that specifically condemn fornication. Hebrews 13:4, for example; "Let marriage be honorable among all, and let the marriage bed be without defilement, for God will judge sexually immoral people and adulterers."

I see no reference to premarital sex. Care to point it out.

1 Corinthians 7:1,2 says; " concerning the things about which you wrote, it is better for a man not to touch a woman; but because of the prevalence of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife and each woman have her own husband."

Still no reference to premarital sex,. Only a reference to the exclusion of shared spouses: polygamy and polyandry. This notion of "own" reflects the condition of immorality god was speaking about. If it didn't there would have been no reason to use the term. God would have simply said, "let each man and woman be wed," or whatever. But he didn't. His obvious point was in addressing the immorality of polygamy and possibly polyandry.

Verses 8 and 9 state: "Now I say to those who are unmarried and to the widows that it is better for them if they remain as I am. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry, for it is better to marry than to be inflamed with passion. Rather than commit sexual immorality, the Bible urges single ones to marry.

Corinthians 7: 8-9
8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. 9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
​

Still no condemnation of premarital sex, only a suggestion that "they should marry." That single people should get married if they have passion for one another. A "should" is not a "must." And because god here has established his regard for sex between unmarried people as only unwise, it cannot then be reconstructed as a sin. God has made his determination: Premarital sex: Unwise? Yes. A sin? No.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 is also relevant: "For this is the will of God, that you should be holy and abstain from sexual immorality. Each one of you should know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not with greedy, uncontrolled sexual passion like the nations have that do not know God."

STILL no reference to premarital sex. Premarital sex is never included in the Bible's "sexual immorality." If god honestly felt that premarital sex was a sin don't you think he would have said so, and and do it unambiguously?


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[Thanda]

Still no condemnation of premarital sex, only a suggestion that "they should marry." That single people should get married if they have passion for one another. A "should" is not a "must." And because god here has established his regard for sex between unmarried people as only unwise, it cannot then be reconstructed as a sin. God has made his determination: Premarital sex: Unwise? Yes. A sin? No.

This paragraph alone shows that you do not understand what sin is in a Christian view.

 

[Thanda]

Then why doesn't it?


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The more important question is why would anyone think it doesn't - that is, what would a person stand to gain from explaining away God's disapproval of premarital sex written into the Bible - a clear conscience?

 

[james2ko]

I see no reference to premarital sex. Care to point it out. Still no reference to premarital sex,. Only a reference to the exclusion of shared spouses: polygamy and polyandry.

If that were the case, the term for woman in 1 Co 7:1 in the singular is somewhat suspect. If Paul was in fact discouraging polygamy, the Greek term for woman should have been in the plural. It's not...Hence tipping the interpretive scale to a reference of a prohibition to sex outside of a monogamous marriage.

Additionally, Paul here uses the reflexive pronoun "heautou" which indicates his/her own possession [of one (singular) woman or one man]. Your polygamist interpretation suggests Paul should have used the adjective "mia", meaning one or first. Indicating the wife having one [mia] husband and the husband having one [mia] wife.

​

 

[Skwim]

.

This paragraph alone shows that you do not understand what sin is in a Christian view.

I understand only too well the Christian view of sin. It's whatever the Christian declares it to be, most often reading the literal word of the Bible, and sometimes, as in this case, twisting scripture to suit it's needs. If you truly wish to make an argument then show us where the quoted material in the OP is is wrong, OR where I'm wrong. Merely asserting so doesn't cut it.


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[Thanda]

I understand only too well the Christian view of sin. It's whatever the Christian declares it to be, most often reading the literal word of the Bible, and sometimes, as in this case, twisting scripture to suit it's needs. If you truly wish to make an argument then show us where the quoted material in the OP is is wrong, OR where I'm wrong. Merely asserting so doesn't cut it.

Christians believe in God. They also believe in Heaven. They believe that to enter heaven one must follow God. If, therefore, God says something is unwise then doing it (after he told you it is unwise) does in fact constitute sin. For we cannot conceive that heaven can accommodate people who flout God's counsels and who willfully do the very things which he says are unwise. Can you conceive it?

So in fact the Christian conception of sin is that which keeps us away from coming closer to God spiritually and which would prevent us from entering heaven ultimately. And willfully doing things which God considers unwise qualifies as doing something that would prevent you from drawing nearer to God. Therefore it is sin.

 

[Skwim]

The more important question is why would anyone think it doesn't - that is, what would a person stand to gain from explaining away God's disapproval of premarital sex written into the Bible - a clear conscience?

Disapproval doesn't mean sin. Dsapproval does not equate with condemnation. Or maybe in your particular denomination it does. In your faith do all of god's disapproval equate with sin?

In your life does disapproval equate with condemnation? Dictionaries don't say they do.

If that were the case, the term for woman in 1 Co 7:1 in the singular is somewhat suspect. If Paul was in fact discouraging polygamy, the Greek term for woman should have been in the plural.

Why? He's talking about individuals. "each man have his own wife and each woman have her own husband." The meaning is that a man doesn't share his wife, nor a wife share her husband. The word "each" references an individual.

Additionally, Paul here uses the reflexive pronoun "heautou" which indicates his/her own possession [of one (singular) woman or one man].

Yup. There's no sharing suppose to be going on.




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[Skwim]

Christians believe in God. They also believe in Heaven. They believe that to enter heaven one must follow God. If, therefore, God says something is unwise then doing it (after he told you it is unwise) does in fact constitute sin. For we cannot conceive that heaven can accommodate people who flout God's counsels and who willfully do the very things which he says are unwise. Can you conceive it?

Indeed I can, but so what? What bearing does this have on the claim that god considers premarital sex to be a sin?

So in fact the Christian conception of sin is that which keeps us away from coming closer to God spiritually and which would prevent us from entering heaven ultimately. And willfully doing things which God considers unwise qualifies as doing something that would prevent you from drawing nearer to God. Therefore it is sin.

Really! EXACTLY where in the Bible is this spelled out? That doing unwise things amounts to sinning?

The more important question is why would anyone think it doesn't - that is, what would a person stand to gain from explaining away God's disapproval of premarital sex written into the Bible - a clear conscience?

Oh no you don't. Before I answer any of your questions you have to give a direct answer to mine.


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[Thanda]

Disapproval doesn't mean sin. Dsapproval does not equate with condemnation. Or maybe in your particular denomination it does. In your faith do all of god's disapproval equate with sin?

In your life does disapproval equate with condemnation? Dictionaries don't say they do.

In my understanding doing something I know God disapproves of is sin. This is because I cannot imagine God disapproving of something just for the sake of it. If God didn't particularly care about something, like the color shirt we should wear it is more consistent with his character for him to say nothing about it. It would be irresponsible of him, knowing the high regard we have of him, to burden us with his disapprovals and discouragements without actually expecting us to do anything about it.

 

[Thanda]

Indeed I can, but so what? What bearing does this have on the claim that god considers premarital sex to be a sin?

Read the original section of your reply to rusra that I quoted. You claimed that God believes premarital sex is unwise. I am now making the claim that knowingly doing something God has expressly said is unwise amounts to sin. The sin is not in the thing that is done (whatever it might be), it is in the act of rebellion and pride in doing what God has said you should avoid.

Really! EXACTLY where in the Bible is this spelled out? That doing unwise things amounts to sinning?

It doesn't need to be spelled out. The whole purpose of Christianity is to get people to heaven. The Bible itself attempts to guide to heaven. According to the Bible the only thing that stands between us and heaven is sin. Therefore, by implication, anything that impedes us from doing what is necessary to qualify for heaven is sinful. Again it is important to note that sin often lies not in the nature of the thing itself but rather in the intention of the person who does the deed. So doing something that is God says unwise is not in and of itself sinful. But doing something you know God has said is unwise is. And the commandment against which you are sinning against is the first of the ten: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. For in refusing his counsel you set yourself up as a god unto yourself. You in effect are saying you know better how to obtain God's salvation and to enter into His heaven than he does.

Oh no you don't. Before I answer any of your questions you have to give a direct answer to mine.

I yes I do. There are many scriptures I could quote (and most have already been quoted) but you will surely attempt, as you have already done, to explain them away. So instead of going on a merry go round let's just get to the root of the issue and find out why it is so important to you to believe that premarital sex is not condemned by God or the bible

 

[Skwim]

In my understanding doing something I know God disapproves of is sin. This is because I cannot imagine God disapproving of something just for the sake of it.

In others words there are no gray areas in god's world. He sees everything as either black or white. That about it?

If God didn't particularly care about something, like the color shirt we should wear it is more consistent with his character for him to say nothing about it. It would be irresponsible of him, knowing the high regard we have of him, to burden us with his disapprovals and discouragements without actually expecting us to do anything about it.

He may expect us to do something about it, but there's nothing in the Bible that says all his unfulfilled expectations turn into sins. OR if there is, please cite the passage.


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[rusra02]

I see no reference to premarital sex. Care to point it out.

Still no reference to premarital sex,. Only a reference to the exclusion of shared spouses: polygamy and polyandry. This notion of "own" reflects the condition of immorality god was speaking about. If it didn't there would have been no reason to use the term. God would have simply said, "let each man and woman be wed," or whatever. But he didn't. His obvious point was in addressing the immorality of polygamy and possibly polyandry.

Corinthians 7: 8-9
8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. 9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
​

Still no condemnation of premarital sex, only a suggestion that "they should marry." That single people should get married if they have passion for one another. A "should" is not a "must." And because god here has established his regard for sex between unmarried people as only unwise, it cannot then be reconstructed as a sin. God has made his determination: Premarital sex: Unwise? Yes. A sin? No.

STILL no reference to premarital sex. Premarital sex is never included in the Bible's "sexual immorality." If god honestly felt that premarital sex was a sin don't you think he would have said so, and and do it unambiguously?


.


.

Sexual immorality, or fornication, includes sexual relations between unmarried persons. Regarding such conduct, Galatians 5:19-21 warns: "Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct,... I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom." 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says; "For this is the will of God, that you should be holy and abstain from sexual immorality." That is clear enough for me.
The inspired counsel at 1 Corinthians 7:8,9 to marry rather than "burn with passion" clearly excludes sex outside of marriage, which is not an option for true Chrstians. Rather than premarital sex, the Bible clearly reveals God's condemnation of any sexual activity outside the marriage bond, IMO.