http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/18/u...riage.html?emc=edit_na_20150317&nlid=56901988
The votes in and same sex marriage is approved. Please discuss.
The votes in and same sex marriage is approved. Please discuss.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Presbyterians Give Approval to Same Sex Marriage
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
jonathan180iq
Well-Known Member
There was a huge dust-up here in my hometown over this very issue a couple of years ago. The church was known to be leaning in that direction so the multi-million dollar campus of First Presbyterian Church here held a vote among its members.
Now, I'm from the South, so this didn't quite go the way the leadership assumed that it would...
Something like 80% of the local Presbyterian community voted against the change and a smaller minority were asked to leave the church. (To be fair, I think some of them also chose to make this move, but others were pretty much cast out.) There are now two Presbyterian denominations here, and only one of them gets to keep the official affiliation. Those who disapproved of gay marriage kept the mega-campus, of course, and those who supported gay marriage held their services in an old abandoned plantation home downtown. They've since added a worship hall to that building and a fellowship hall, I believe.
The large campus has changed their name to "Christ's Church" and the official Presbyterians in the plantation home have a sign that reads "First Presbyterian Church"
Now, I'm from the South, so this didn't quite go the way the leadership assumed that it would...
Something like 80% of the local Presbyterian community voted against the change and a smaller minority were asked to leave the church. (To be fair, I think some of them also chose to make this move, but others were pretty much cast out.) There are now two Presbyterian denominations here, and only one of them gets to keep the official affiliation. Those who disapproved of gay marriage kept the mega-campus, of course, and those who supported gay marriage held their services in an old abandoned plantation home downtown. They've since added a worship hall to that building and a fellowship hall, I believe.
The large campus has changed their name to "Christ's Church" and the official Presbyterians in the plantation home have a sign that reads "First Presbyterian Church"
I have to say, being from the south, I'm shocked that the Presbyterian church is approving on this particular issue.
Still, it's a big step forward. They're now the largest Protestant denomination in the US to approve same-sex marriage.
Still, it's a big step forward. They're now the largest Protestant denomination in the US to approve same-sex marriage.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I am happy we are getting closer to marriage equality. What did the Church base its decision on and how do they use the Bible to support their decisions?
jonathan180iq
Well-Known Member
I come from a Presbyter background, so I can give at least a little insight, though my Bible reading days are behind me.
Presbyterians are deterministic. The idea is really quite simple. Anything that would be God (with a capital G), must be omniscient. Anything less than that wouldn't be God. It would be a god...
Using that base understanding, God knew and knows everything ever. All actions and outcomes, to some extent, are also the outcome of God's omnipotent omniscience. Because of that, everything is attributed to god, both the good and the bad. Marriage equality is obviously something that is happening to this world and, as such, it's part of God's will. It would be against the fabric of the Presbyterian understanding of God to oppose that.
I don't think I explained that very eloquently, but that's the gist of it.... I'm sick. Sorry.
gsa
Well-Known Member
This is partly why it is so surprising to me that the Presbyterians have evolved so quickly on this issue, while the United Methodists, for example, remain conservative. The Reformed tradition is generally very hostile, theologically, to gay people.
Just the latest in a long line of poor judgment various churches have enacted because they thought they knew better than God.
And, yes, the coverup by some Catholic bishops is one of the worst.
NulliuSINverba
Active Member
Ladies 'n Gentlemen, comin' soon t'a neighborhood near y'all ...
The Second Presbyterian Church (USA)
NulliuSINverba
Active Member
A tithe is a tithe is a tithe.
And religion is undoubtedly a business. If it's true that church attendance is declining at an unprecedented pace, it only makes sound business sense to not automatically exclude and alienate a percentage of prospective
But you know how those evangelicals are ... they're always trying to recruit people into their chosen lifestyle.
I have a very warped fondness for you. Those first two linked articles are well researched, I do appreciate the time and effort you afforded. Less than 20% Americans regular weekly church goers! That will surely bring on God's wrath sooner than later. But I want to find the time to read them and the others somewhat before I respond in kind.
Of course my first impression was to totally dismiss your theory that the presbytes might have endorsed gay marriage for attendance or revenue purposes. I still do. Yet, you may have a niche that needs to be confirmed that it is definitely not the case. Surely the Catholic Church does not operate under such shameful thinking. I am sure of that much.
NulliuSINverba
Active Member
...
"And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him." ~ Mark 12:17
Yes. Indeed. Down through the ages, the Catholic Church has demonstrated its complete distaste for material wealth.
Never mind that St. John describes heaven as having streets paved of gold.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Yet, the UCC (in the Reformed tradition) has been open for a long time. In fact, they were the first denomination to be so.
gsa
Well-Known Member
That's true, but individual congregations do not have to follow the social liberalism line of the UCC statements, resolutions and recommendations at the synod level.
gsa
Well-Known Member
Let me guess: This critique isn't offered for their position on marriage equality, but for certain divestment measures that you dislike?
CMike
Well-Known Member
Among a slew of other ultra left wing positions.
Is not this charge of yours off topic? The Vatican may be holding on to treasures others think should be sold, but the Vatican is not going to endorse gay marriage or abortion or premarital sex just so more people will attend their services and donate money. The difference between the two “sins” is immense, imo.
And as to the first “sin” let’s not be too dogmatic about this. I cannot spend time researching better words or arguments but suffice it to say, 1- most artwork and treasures cannot be sold, they are for the enjoyment and edification of the masses. Nor are most church assets even the least bit practical to be sold, such as churches, cathedrals, etc. 2- the Church is not wealthy, priests far and away live in very modest or spartan surroundings. Some cardinals and bishops do take a few liberties beyond what is wise, but that is the exception. So if the Church is holding on to wealth it is not because it is being used by the clergy and hierarchy for the life of luxury, so why all the cynicism?
And no matter how much charity and goodness the Church does for the world all we will hear is look at those gold pieces they hoard, etc. [mark 14 While he was in Bethany, reclining at the table in the home of Simon the Leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, made of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured the perfume on his head. 4 Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, “Why this waste of perfume? 5 It could have been sold for more than a year’s wagesand the money given to the poor.” And they rebuked her harshly. 6 “Leave her alone,” said Jesus. “Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 7 The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me.]