Primate of Ireland embroiled in child abuse scandal

[Sunstone]

So, the Pope thinks secularlism leads to child abuse. I'd say the evidence is more along the lines that the Church has created a corporate culture of child abuse -- one which it still defends even to this day.

 

[berrychrisc]

So, the Pope thinks secularlism leads to child abuse.

Okay, so it wasn't just me. I read the letter and I figured I must have misunderstood it. Very disturbing.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Where does he say that secularism leads to child abuse?

 

[Autodidact]

Where does he say that secularism leads to child abuse?

In recent decades, however, the Church in your country has had to confront new and serious challenges to the faith arising from the rapid transformation and secularization of Irish society. Fast-paced social change has occurred, often adversely affecting people’s traditional adherence to Catholic teaching and values. All too often, the sacramental and devotional practices that sustain faith and enable it to grow, such as frequent confession, daily prayer and annual retreats, were neglected. Significant too was the tendency during this period, also on the part of priests and religious, to adopt ways of thinking and assessing secular realities without sufficient reference to the Gospel. The programme of renewal proposed by the Second Vatican Council was sometimes misinterpreted and indeed, in the light of the profound social changes that were taking place, it was far from easy to know how best to implement it. In particular, there was a well-intentioned but misguided tendency to avoid penal approaches to canonically irregular situations. It is in this overall context that we must try to understand the disturbing problem of child sexual abuse, which has contributed in no small measure to the weakening of faith and the loss of respect for the Church and her teachings.

 

[I Am]

I feel that if priests were allowed to get married they would not be as inclined to focus such sexual tension on those individuals who come closest to them spiritually and mentally - the confessioners - particularly children.

 

[monta]

I feel that if priests were allowed to get married they would not be as inclined to focus such sexual tension on those individuals who come closest to them spiritually and mentally - the confessioners - particularly children.

The priests aren't cloistered with children being their only human contact.

I despise this argument, it takes the responsibilty off the individual perpetrating abuse. The church covered up abuse and fostered an environment in which it was allowed not just to flourish, but to become almost the norm. That is a seperate issue from the abuse itself, that is fully the responsibilty of the abusers.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I feel that if priests were allowed to get married they would not be as inclined to focus such sexual tension on those individuals who come closest to them spiritually and mentally - the confessioners - particularly children.

I think it has more to do with the idea that people with a propensity for sexually abusing children, are more likely to pursue jobs or situations which put them into a position to do it more easily.

 

[Autodidact]

I think the problem is not so much the sick criminals who raped the children, as the entire criminal conspiracy that did everything it could to ensure they would have steady, continued access to their victims, and never suffer any negative consequence for their crimes.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Thanks Auto, for the citation.

The church covered up abuse and fostered an environment in which it was allowed not just to flourish, but to become almost the norm.

This is not true. Sexual abuse of children is certainly not "almost the norm" in Catholic institutions and parishes. There is something like 1 billion Catholics, so the abuse can seem to be in even greater proportion than what it is. Statistics don't evidence any significant more percentages of abuse in Catholic institutions than any other in the world.

That aside, I think its true that cultural problems within the Church have fostered an environment that stinted the pursuit of justice and encouraged active ignorance of the problem, and this obviously has to be confronted.

Also, I don't think celibacy in and of itself is the problem.

 

[monta]

I think the problem is not so much the sick criminals who raped the children, as the entire criminal conspiracy that did everything it could to ensure they would have steady, continued access to their victims, and never suffer any negative consequence for their crimes.

I see them as seperate, each act of abuse should be treated as a unique crime or else we can fall into a lazy dismissive attitude of ''Oh another church scandal''

Any cover up or any official who turned a blind eye is guilty as well, but they should be treated as seperate issues, otherwise each individual is not heard, which is a further violation of their rights.

Alot of the victims want to be heard a lot more than they want financial restitution or to bring down the church.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

what we need is people in positions of responsibility to stop trying to bypass the legal system.

What I think we also need is an end to the legal system putting priests on pedestals and viewing the Church as "sacred" in a judicial sense.

For instance, why hasn't Cardinal Brady been charged with obstruction of justice? You can't pin that on Church cover-ups any more; his actions are public knowledge now.

 

[monta]

What I think we also need is an end to the legal system putting priests on pedestals and viewing the Church as "sacred" in a judicial sense.

For instance, why hasn't Cardinal Brady been charged with obstruction of justice? You can't pin that on Church cover-ups any more; his actions are public knowledge now.

The church and the state have lain cheek in jowl on this all the way, I don't think they could charge him without exposing themselves.

There was one case where a victim, who was a young child, escaped the school where he was being sexually abused and went to the police to report it. The police called the priest to collect him.

 

[berrychrisc]

Also, I don't think celibacy in and of itself is the problem.

No, but it is a problem:

A national survey, completed in 1996 but intentionally never publicized, estimates that a "minimum" of 34,000 Catholic nuns, or about 40 percent of all nuns in the United States, have suffered some form of sexual trauma.

The survey was conducted by researchers at St. Louis University and was paid for, in part, by several orders of Catholic nuns.

The survey is the only national scientific study dealing with the sexual victimization of nuns in the Catholic Church, according to its researchers.

The survey also solicited comments - many of them poignant - from the nuns who were questioned.

The comments/stories of the nuns are too explicit to be posted here, but the entire article can be found at Nuns as sexual victims get little notice



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[Jordan St. Francis]

True. I think it could be problematic and that we should be willing to listen to other options. For example, the Eastern rites have many married priests. The Church could modify the discipline so that celibacy is mandatory for monastic life, for the Episcopate, and also permit orders to choose it in their rule- but let your ordinary diocesan priest be married.

 

[Troublemane]

Is there anyone else here who finds the title "PRIMATE" for a religious leader, strangely ironic? :angel2:

 

[Autodidact]

True. I think it could be problematic and that we should be willing to listen to other options. For example, the Eastern rites have many married priests. The Church could modify the discipline so that celibacy is mandatory for monastic life, for the Episcopate, and also permit orders to choose it in their rule- but let your ordinary diocesan priest be married.

Alternatively, the church leaders could all be prosecuted for their crimes and then incarcerated, and the church assets be seized under RICO and equivalent laws, until the church ceases to exist. That seems to me to be more likely to solve the problem.

 

[Buttercup]

I think it has more to do with the idea that people with a propensity for sexually abusing children, are more likely to pursue jobs or situations which put them into a position to do it more easily.

Exactly. Why the need for altar boys? It's hard to imagine parents allowing them to volunteer these days. Why not abolish the position?

 

[I Am]

The priests aren't cloistered with children being their only human contact.

I despise this argument, it takes the responsibilty off the individual perpetrating abuse. The church covered up abuse and fostered an environment in which it was allowed not just to flourish, but to become almost the norm. That is a seperate issue from the abuse itself, that is fully the responsibilty of the abusers.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be held responsible. I'm merely proposing a way in which these abuses may be lessened.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm not saying they shouldn't be held responsible. I'm merely proposing a way in which these abuses may be lessened.

I can think of a lot of ways to reduce these abuses. Prohibit any priest from being alone with any child, ever. Let every priest and every congregant know that any Catholic is asked to report any abuse of a child by a priest to the police and the bishop, and that the bishop will call the police, turn the priest over to them, and open their own records and make any evidence available to law enforcement authorities. Make it clear that preventing sexual abuse is a Catholic duty. Immediately open up all of the relevant records (that they haven't already destroyed) and turn them over to the pertinent legal officials, NOW. Agree to waive any statue of limitations defense to any civil litigation. Fire every Catholic official who in any way obstructed justice or facilitated this criminal activity, including the Pope. That would go a long way.

Why doesn't all of this go without saying? Why is criminal sexual abuse tolerated when it is perpetrated by the Catholic Church?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why doesn't all of this go without saying? Why is criminal sexual abuse tolerated when it is perpetrated by the Catholic Church?

I think monta hit on one big reason: there are other people who were complicit.

Also, I think there's a tendency for people to believe that while this scandal may affect other parts of the Church, their priest/parish/bishop/diocese/etc. is different.