Primordial Soup

[Subduction Zone]

without the theoretical abiogenesis you cannot have the theoretical evolution. They're inherently and unavoidably connected. Theoretically of course.

You have been corrected on this so many times. Why do you keep repeating it?

 

[YoursTrue]

This is a thread about abiogenesis, primordial soup(?), and evolution not Demons in the other thread.

ok.

 

[YoursTrue]

Like without theoretical fuel you cannot have a theoretical car.

That does not mean that fuel is car

OK, and I was thinking about that, somewhat. Meaning that it's on a similar level so it seems to me with what's beyond the universe? It's all conjecture.

 

[YoursTrue]

@ChristineM oh, I forgot I said forget it for this discussion. Anyway I answered but in the meantime I take back kind of (maybe not entirely) what I said about answering. Maybe I will; maybe I won't.

 

[Subduction Zone]

OK, and I was thinking about that, somewhat. Meaning that it's on a similar level so it seems to me with what's beyond the universe? It's all conjecture.

You should try to learn why it is not conjecture.

 

[YoursTrue]

You should try to learn why it is not conjecture.

Oh really? Maybe you can give in your own words why one might say if there is something or nothing beyond the universe is not conjecture? Got any evidence you can support?

 

[YoursTrue]

You have been corrected on this so many times. Why do you keep repeating it?

Without the theory of abiogenesis, you would have no theoretical evolution. Or do you disagree with that? Let's take it a step further. Let's say there could have been abiogenesis but no evolution. -) ) Would you think that could be so? C'mon, give us your educated opinion about this, ok?

 

[Heyo]

Without the theory of abiogenesis, you would have no theoretical evolution. Or do you disagree with that? Let's take it a step further. Let's say there could have been abiogenesis but no evolution. -) ) Would you think that could be so? C'mon, give us your educated opinion about this, ok?

Evolution needs life as a precondition, not a theory of how life arose. Evolution can treat life as a brute fact.
You don't need to know how an engine works to drive a car.

 

[YoursTrue]

Evolution needs life as a precondition, not a theory of how life arose. Evolution can treat life as a brute fact.
You don't need to know how an engine works to drive a car.

I would daresay one needs a working engine in a car for the car to work, wouldn't you?

 

[Heyo]

I would daresay one needs a working engine in a car for the car to work, wouldn't you?

Yes, that's what I said. You can treat the working engine as a brute fact. You don't have to have a theory about the inner workings of the engine or where it came from.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, that's what I said. You can treat the working engine as a brute fact. You don't have to have a theory about the inner workings of the engine or where it came from.

OK, dispensing with illustrations for a moment, evolution (or the theory of) cannot happen without abiogenesis, or that theory also. Would you agree?

 

[ChristineM]

OK, and I was thinking about that, somewhat. Meaning that it's on a similar level so it seems to me with what's beyond the universe? It's all conjecture.

What's beyond the universe?

 

[ChristineM]

@ChristineM oh, I forgot I said forget it for this discussion. Anyway I answered but in the meantime I take back kind of (maybe not entirely) what I said about answering. Maybe I will; maybe I won't.

When you have an answer to the evidence i posted that seems to have stumped you then please get back to me.

 

[Heyo]

OK, dispensing with illustrations for a moment, evolution (or the theory of) cannot happen without abiogenesis, or that theory also. Would you agree?

No.
Is it that hard to get?
I'm at a loss of how to explain it to you. You keep on saying that a theory of abiogenesis is needed and keep on conflating that with abiogenesis is needed. You need life (or more precisely reproduction with inheritance and variation) for a theory of evolution. You don't need to know where that life came from.
You can have cosmology without cosmogony, agriculture without evolution and theology without a theory where gods come from.

 

[Heyo]

The show is How The Universe Works, and the episode was Season 4/Episode 5 The Dawn Of Life

I couldn't find a link to the episode, but there is this. One link looked like it might have been right, but I was informed that it was not available outside the US. This is a transcript, but not a very good one. Still, if it's the best we can do, it's not useless. Maybe you'll do better finding the video.

Found it on How the Universe Works Watch Online Free Season 4 Episode 4 123movies after some searching. The episodes are mislabeled.
It's OK but not what I'm looking for. I don't like their sensationalist style. But that may be just the right thing for people who aren't much into science.

Edited to add:
This is a better documentary:

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

without the theoretical abiogenesis you cannot have the theoretical evolution. They're inherently and unavoidably connected. Theoretically of course.

False.

First life could be the result of a magical unicorn farting or your god creating it, and evolution theory (ie: what happens to life AFTER IT ORIGINATES) would remain completely unchanged.

This has been explained to you before. Multiple times.
Why insist on being wrong?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Without the theory of abiogenesis, you would have no theoretical evolution.

This is obviously and ridiculously false.

Here's the easy evidence: we are 2023 and we still don't have a conclusive theory of abiogenesis.
Yet, we've known about evolution since 1859

Or do you disagree with that? Let's take it a step further. Let's say there could have been abiogenesis but no evolution. -) ) Would you think that could be so? C'mon, give us your educated opinion about this, ok?

We already know for a fact that there is evolution.
Your question is like asking "could there be no atoms / molecules"

We already know there are atoms and molecules.
We already know that life has evolved, and still evolve and will continue to evolve for as long as there are living organisms that reproduce with variation and are in competition with peers over limited resources.

Regardless how life came to be (and I do mean REGARDLESS HOW - be it gods, aliens, unicorns, extra-dimensional farts, a natural chemical process...): it started evolving once it existed.

Full stop.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

OK, dispensing with illustrations for a moment, evolution (or the theory of) cannot happen without abiogenesis, or that theory also. Would you agree?

False

It can not happen without life existing.

It matters not how life comes into existence.

How many times must it be repeated?

 

[Khabeni412]

The primordial soup isn't a hypothesis anymore and has turned into a strawman from creationists. One more recent hypothesis is that life formed in alkaline hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor. These areas are conducive to organic molecules forming. The formation of self-replicating molecules is energetically favorable (spontaneous) which means it will happen given the right conditions. Thermodynamics proves life can come from non-life. Yes, this still happens today. But because of the abundance of life, consuming organic molecules, it never gets to self-replicating molecules.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The primordial soup isn't a hypothesis anymore and has turned into a strawman from creationists. One more recent hypothesis is that life formed in alkaline hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor. These areas are conducive to organic molecules forming. The formation of self-replicating molecules is energetically favorable (spontaneous) which means it will happen given the right conditions. Thermodynamics proves life can come from non-life. Yes, this still happens today. But because of the abundance of life, consuming organic molecules, it never gets to self-replicating molecules.

You might like this article. It goes into the processes involved with a bit more detail:

Hydrothermal vents and the origins of life

Did life start on land or underwater?

www.chemistryworld.com