Pro abortion vs Pro choice?

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I've recently decided to refer to myself as pro-abortion instead of pro choice and that is because I believe females even in the West are still being socialised into motherhood from a very young age and made to feel guilty for not having some level of "motherly love" or an instant bond with the embryo or foetus.
I think abortion is still viewed as this secret shame were even many pro-choicers are saying "abortion is awful but women shouldn't be arrested for having one" which I think still contributes to the social stigma around abortion rights. My hunch is that many more young women would seriously consider abortion as an option if they didn't experience social stigma and guilt tripping for making that decision.
So I feel referring to myself as pro-abortion makes my stance even more clear.

Thoughts?
Does anyone else think there is stigma against abortions attached to being "pro choice" and that this is necessary to address?

 

[Noa]

It is quite the reverse as far as your term goes, in my opinion. The pro-life movement habitually uses the term 'pro-abortion' in their rhetoric because pro-choice sounds too reasonable and good. I cannot imagine any situation where it would be a good idea to describe yourself as 'pro-abortion.' The misunderstandings of what you intend to convey with the term will be monumental.

Edit: I should point out that I do agree with your notion that there is an unfortunate stigma regarding abortions. But I think using the term 'pro-abortion' is a very unfortunate way to combat it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I've recently decided to refer to myself as pro-abortion instead of pro choice and that is because I believe females even in the West are still being socialised into motherhood from a very young age and made to feel guilty for not having some level of "motherly love" or an instant bond with the embryo or foetus.
I think abortion is still viewed as this secret shame were even many pro-choicers are saying "abortion is awful but women shouldn't be arrested for having one" which I think still contributes to the social stigma around abortion rights. My hunch is that many more young women would seriously consider abortion as an option if they didn't experience social stigma and guilt tripping for making that decision.
So I feel referring to myself as pro-abortion makes my stance even more clear.

Thoughts?
Does anyone else think there is stigma against abortions attached to being "pro choice" and that this is necessary to address?

Im not pro abortion nor pro choice; and, I do see how environmental, social, and religious influence could influence a woman on one side or the other. My mother had an abortion because she felt she couldnt raise a child in an abusive household. I assume she felt guilt for a long while.

Other than that, Im completely against it. Guilt can defintely influence ones position on it.

 

[Augustus]

Does anyone else think there is stigma against abortions attached to being "pro choice" and that this is necessary to address?

Pro-choice was a label used to avoid the statement pro-abortion, due to negative connotations and emotional reactions attached to it.

Pro-choice/pro-life are positive statements, everyone supports choice/life in general. Pro-abortion is like saying abortions are good, let's have more of them. It leaves itself too open to attack through misrepresentation.

More people will support the idea of pro-choice rather than pro-abortion, the wording makes a big difference. Political euphemisms are an unfortunate part of reality as they are effective. You even get examples now of euphemisms replacing other euphemisms, once the old euphemism has started to carry to many negative connotations, for example 'friendly fire' became 'blue on blue'. The ethics are questionable, but they aren't going to go away as there is plenty of evidence that they are effective in terms of political communication.

If you object to the term pro-choice, then pro-abortion rights is more accurate than pro-abortion anyway.

 

[Augustus]

Yes.
But I can't explain why in this heavily restricted "DIR".
Tom

From the 'rules':

Feminist: Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment.

Assuming you agree with this then it should be ok to post your opinions.

 

[Augustus]

User Columbus is correct. In a dir (as currently interpreted), opinions can only be given by Dir members.

What does it mean in regards to feminism to be a DIR 'member'? What qualifies one as a feminist?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

It is quite the reverse as far as your term goes, in my opinion. The pro-life movement habitually uses the term 'pro-abortion' in their rhetoric because pro-choice sounds too reasonable and good. I cannot imagine any situation where it would be a good idea to describe yourself as 'pro-abortion.' The misunderstandings of what you intend to convey with the term will be monumental.

Edit: I should point out that I do agree with your notion that there is an unfortunate stigma regarding abortions. But I think using the term 'pro-abortion' is a very unfortunate way to combat it.

I don't really understand why pro-abortion is unreasonable? Abortion is a necessary defence against patriarchy in my opinion.
However maybe terminology is not as important as actually addressing the stigma that many pro choicers contribute to.

 

[Noa]

I don't really understand why pro-abortion is unreasonable? Abortion is a necessary defence against patriarchy in my opinion.
However maybe terminology is not as important as actually addressing the stigma that many pro choicers contribute to.

Because pro-life people use the term 'pro-abortion' to imply that pro-choice people do not want to stop teen pregnancy, they do not want to educate, etc. All they want to do is give people a giant eject button on their pregnancy. One of the largest arguments revolving around the abortion issue has been whether or not Roe v. Wade and sex education have reduced the number of abortions. Pro-lifers use the term 'pro-abortion' as their way to claim that it has not reduced abortions but instead has increased it, that liberals do not care about health or morality but simply want women to be able to avoid consequence for their actions. They also use it as a snide way to try to bring up their conspiracy theories about Margaret Sanger being a supporter of eugenics and so forth.

Long story short, there is a great deal of political rhetoric around the term 'pro-abortion.' Since that is the case, it would be unwise to try to use the term in any positive sense. Because frankly, nobody wants to increase abortion in the longterm. The goal is for sexual education to reach a point where unwanted pregnancies are avoided in the first place. The term 'pro-choice' includes implications about choice of contraceptives, education, etc. Pro-abortion is less comprehensive and has a great deal of baggage.

 

[Father Heathen]

From the 'rules':

Feminist: Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment.

Assuming you agree with this then it should be ok to post your opinions.

Exactly, but there are many who say you cannot be a feminist if you question some of the more extreme and absurd ideas, such as opposing paternal testing to trap a man into paying child support even if he isn't the biological father (yes, this has been a thing).

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Unwanted pregnancies will never be avoided. Pro lifers will still hate women and pro-choicers will still play their part to contribute to social stigma.
How can we address the social stigma that pro choicers contribute to?

 

[Quintessence]

I've recently decided to refer to myself as pro-abortion instead of pro choice and that is because I believe females even in the West are still being socialised into motherhood from a very young age and made to feel guilty for not having some level of "motherly love" or an instant bond with the embryo or foetus.

I don't think the phrase "pro-abortion" is going to evoke those kinds of thoughts in the people who hear it. It sure doesn't for me. A term that would elicit that is "pro-childless" (the position of advocating childlessness) not so much "pro-abortion" (the position of advocating abortions).

I think abortion is still viewed as this secret shame were even many pro-choicers are saying "abortion is awful but women shouldn't be arrested for having one" which I think still contributes to the social stigma around abortion rights. My hunch is that many more young women would seriously consider abortion as an option if they didn't experience social stigma and guilt tripping for making that decision.

I'm not sure it's that. Even among those who are pro-choice, there appears to be general agreement that abortion is not the ideal choice of birth control. As such, it would often be inaccurate to describe those who are pro-choice as pro-abortion. They don't advocate abortion as a method of birth control, and tend to see it as a "last resort" when other measures of birth control fail. It seems to me that painting pro-choicers as pro-abortion (which to the pro-lifer, basically reads as pro-murder, unfortunately) may be a greater contributor to stigmas.

So I feel referring to myself as pro-abortion makes my stance even more clear.

As noted above, I really don't think that calling yourself "pro-abortion" is going to communicate to other people what you would like it to here. That identifier might work okay in your own mind, but I think it's going to miscommunicate to other people.

Does anyone else think there is stigma against abortions attached to being "pro choice" and that this is necessary to address?

In a sense, maybe? But I think I don't quite understand what your angle is here. Could you elaborate?

Unwanted pregnancies will never be avoided. Pro lifers will still hate women and pro-choicers will still play their part to contribute to social stigma.
How can we address the social stigma that pro choicers contribute to?

As above, what is this social stigma that pro-choicers supposedly contribute to? Maybe I'm just dumb, but I don't really know what you're talking about here?

 

[Penumbra]

People generally try to phrase their views in the best way possible and their opponents views in the worst way possible. So the desire to restrict or outlaw women from having abortions is "pro life". Along the same lines, people use "pro choice" because what's emphasized is the ability of a woman to make decisions about her own body, not the desire in and of itself to have an abortion. "Pro-abortion" linguistically sounds more like people going out and promoting that women should have more abortions, which is not generally the goal here.

I personally think that "pro choice" is an accurate way to describe it positively.

But if a person wants to use "pro abortion" instead, I'm not going to disagree. It would be an example of where a person proudly uses what their opponents consider a negative term.

Language is definitely an important element that can change peoples' perception about something, but I don't really see this as a case where the terminology itself is playing a major role in creating stigma. I'm not sure how to best address the stigma, but I just don't really see the phrase "pro choice" as a contributor to it.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

@Quintessence
In regards to social stigma, that abortion is generally a bad thing but a necessary evil. Not all, but many pro choicers take this stance, which I completely disagree with.

 

[Quintessence]

@Quintessence
In regards to social stigma, that abortion is generally a bad thing but a necessary evil. Not all, but many pro choicers take this stance, which I completely disagree with.

Okay, thanks... that clarifies. I don't necessarily see "pro-choice" as carrying that stigma against abortion as you do, I guess. I see it as being... well... pro-choice. As in the government should stay out of the issue and respect the fact that women have brains and can think for themselves. The only sense in which I regard abortion itself to be bad is that it's damn expensive compared to other forms of birth control, and that makes it a bad choice. I mean, who wants to pay lots of money to terminate a pregnancy when other, far less expensive methods can do the heavy lifting?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Okay, thanks... that clarifies. I don't necessarily see "pro-choice" as carrying that stigma against abortion as you do, I guess. I see it as being... well... pro-choice. As in the government should stay out of the issue and respect the fact that women have brains and can think for themselves. The only sense in which I regard abortion itself to be bad is that it's damn expensive compared to other forms of birth control, and that makes it a bad choice. I mean, who wants to pay lots of money to terminate a pregnancy when other, far less expensive methods can do the heavy lifting?

I do think though, that more women would probably seriously consider their abortion rights if there wasn't social stigma around abortions and I think that is a good thing.

 

[Brickjectivity]

What does it mean in regards to feminism to be a DIR 'member'? What qualifies one as a feminist?

It means both that you identify as a feminist and that you support feminist positions.

Suppose that you post and someone questions that your opinion belongs in a dir (by reporting your post) but you think you do belong in that dir -- then it becomes a judgement call for staff. As long as no one reports the post we do not have to mess with it though. The idea is not to shut down all conversation but to facilitate it. Directories let people in groups talk without getting peppered with random conversations, derailed, accused etc. Decisions that are made about who belongs in a dir are in the interest of providing that kind of space and are made with the best guess of several staff members. We try not to be the last word on things, but sometimes we are.

 

[crossfire]

I've recently decided to refer to myself as pro-abortion instead of pro choice and that is because I believe females even in the West are still being socialised into motherhood from a very young age and made to feel guilty for not having some level of "motherly love" or an instant bond with the embryo or foetus.

Young women are not capable of making intelligent decisions for themselves?

I think abortion is still viewed as this secret shame were even many pro-choicers are saying "abortion is awful but women shouldn't be arrested for having one" which I think still contributes to the social stigma around abortion rights. My hunch is that many more young women would seriously consider abortion as an option if they didn't experience social stigma and guilt tripping for making that decision.

Young women are often being told they are too __________________ to make their own decisions, and are stigmatized when they do. (not just concerning abortion)

So I feel referring to myself as pro-abortion makes my stance even more clear.

Thoughts?
Does anyone else think there is stigma against abortions attached to being "pro choice" and that this is necessary to address?

There is going to be stigma attached to any choice a young woman makes in this regard.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

@crossfire
Please do not imply by reference to female socialisation suggested that women can not make decision for themselves. Choices don't exist in a vacuum and I have personally known women who do not want to be pregnant but because they have very misguided information about abortion and internalised misogyny about women just being vessels once they are pregnant, they have continued with a pregnancy they are not happy about. If women were not told that their right to choice was an awful, murderous or evil mother one and that they don't exist to be reproductive sexual vessels for men, I'm sure a lot more women's choices would be different. That's my point.

 

[HonestJoe]

I think all this does is demonstrate the stupidity of defining a position on a complex issue with simplistic and (usually) binary labels. As your post shows, neither label actually helps you because you have to explain what you mean by it regardless and your position will inevitably be different to others who take up (or have applied) the same labels.

There’s no legitimate situation where you won’t be able to explain your position, opinions and beliefs about a topic such as abortion using more than two words leaving the labels only real use being divisive and combative.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Exactly, but there are many who say you cannot be a feminist if you question some of the more extreme and absurd ideas, such as opposing paternal testing to trap a man into paying child support even if he isn't the biological father (yes, this has been a thing).

Discussing and even disagreeing with different positions held by some feminists in this forum section is fine as long as one agrees with some core principles of feminism. Besides, even if someone agrees with those core principles but presents their arguments in a passive-aggressive or hostile manner, they will be in violation of Rule 10, period.