Problem of Evil Revisited

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So then the process is backward. Start with two, and work back. Given what we see happening in the world around us, what does this tell us about "God", if such an entity exists?

It tells us that God is indistinguishable from a god that doesn't exist.

But i think you're missing the point: god-concepts exist, and this is one way to explore whether a given god-concept is reasonable. It isn't about trying to come up with a new religion; it's about evaluating the claims of the religions that already exist.

 

[Tmac]

We are the ones supposedly without superpowers that could fix it. I mean, I get what you're saying, but if we have to do all the work, why should God ever get the credit?


But isn't it fair to ask why should we love (S)omeone who apparently can't be bothered?


If God thinks we can handle eternal bliss after we die (because God didn't let us live for whatever reason), why does He think we can't handle it now?


Smart people go to court with a lot of preparation.


Even if there are, I don't see why heaven or hell or any of its variants mean anything. How does my going to heaven improve things "on the ground"? It doesn't, really.


He was specifically called out for being righteous and without fault. God specifically notes that Satan baited Him to smite the poor schmuck for no good reason.

Looks as though you have a ton of complaints here, I wonder which one would lead to the unraveling of the knot.

 

[Muslim-UK]

IOW, if everything comes from God and God isn't evil at all, then where did evil come from?

From freewill of course.

Good = obedience to GOD
Evil = disobedience to GOD

 

[Koldo]

From freewill of course.

Good = obedience to GOD
Evil = disobedience to GOD

So, if God tells Joe to rape a thousand children, is Joe doing good actions if he obeys God ?

 

[Muslim-UK]

So, if God tells Joe to rape a thousand children, is Joe doing good actions if he obeys God ?

Rape is a evil action, GOD would never command such a thing.

 

[Koldo]

Rape is a evil action, GOD would never command such a thing.

But you said that obeying God is good. This means that regardless of what God asks it is good, regardless of what it is.
Unless you meant that God only asks people to do good things, because he is good himself and knows what things are good. In which case, they are good regardless of whether God asked them from you. So, which one is it ?

 

[Muslim-UK]

But you said that obeying God is good. This means that regardless of what God asks it is good, regardless of what it is.
Unless you meant that God only asks people to do good things, because he is good himself and knows what things are good. In which case, they are good regardless of whether God asked them from you. So, which one is it ?

GOD only commands people to do good.

 

[Koldo]

GOD only commands people to do good.

Ok. So it is good regardless of whether god commands it.

 

[Nakosis]

The problem of evil is often presented as logic and reasoning for a non-benevolent God. I know it's a pretty common argument on these forums so I will be brief. I have always reconciled the problem of evil by seeing God and humans as a father child relationship of unconditional love. In the case of unconditional love, can it be said that God would necessarily allow evil due non-favoritism?

Has anyone seen the movie The Shack? Well this movie uses that argument as a man struggles with faith after losing thier youngest to a human monster. It uses a horrific example to address the problem of evil so if anyone has seen the movie, that's the kind of context I'm looking for. Why would God allow such horrible atrocities?

It's a movie. No one really gets hurt. No one really dies. The actors play their role, get paid, go home and have a good time.

If there were any reality to God, I'd suspect this life turns out to be all illusion. No one really gets hurts or dies. It's all for the experience, the thrill of the ride. Like getting on a roller coaster that make you frightened for your life. As soon as you get off and realize you were safe all along you want to get back on to feel the thrill of emotions again.

You don't like the pain and suffering because you think it is all real. You get lost in the illusion and it becomes all overly dramatic. Then the movie ends and you find yourself wanting to experience all that drama again.

So next life, you get all immersed again, forget all about the illusional aspects and struggle through it all again.

God is given people exactly what they what. Even though at the time they don't realize they are getting exactly what they are asking for.

Fear of death, pain, suffering, drama it's the experience that man craves.

 

[PureX]

No, they're assuming that if God is the source of everything, then there would be nothing in creation that isn't in accord with God's will.

Yeah, but we all know what they say about that word, "assume".

The thing is, we don't know what "God's will' is, and most teists and religions acknowledge that (even though they sometimes seem to think they know everything else).

IOW, if everything comes from God and God isn't evil at all, then where did evil come from?

We invented it.

"Evil" is that which does not serve our sense of justice, purpose, and well-being, while "good" is that which does. Plain and simple. The very first story in the Bible explains this, and calls it mankind's "original sin". Meaning that it is the sin that inspires all our other sins. It is the sin of hubris, and of the presumption that we know "good and evil" as if we were gods, ourselves.

We aren't. And we don't.

 

[PureX]

It tells us that God is indistinguishable from a god that doesn't exist.

But i think you're missing the point: god-concepts exist, and this is one way to explore whether a given god-concept is reasonable. It isn't about trying to come up with a new religion; it's about evaluating the claims of the religions that already exist.

There is no way to verify such claims, and no one has ever been able to. "Reasonableness" presumes that God's nature and existence should be reasonable. Yet there is no basis for this presumption. And without it, everything is possible.

All we have is the idea, and whether or not the idea works for us, in our lives, when we trust in it.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Evil begins and ends, God is the the opposite; ended then begins.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

GOD only commands people to do good.

"Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!" (Psalm 137:9)

 

[neologist]

The problem of evil is often presented as logic and reasoning for a non-benevolent God. I know it's a pretty common argument on these forums so I will be brief. I have always reconciled the problem of evil by seeing God and humans as a father child relationship of unconditional love. In the case of unconditional love, can it be said that God would necessarily allow evil due non-favoritism?

Has anyone seen the movie The Shack? Well this movie uses that argument as a man struggles with faith after losing thier youngest to a human monster. It uses a horrific example to address the problem of evil so if anyone has seen the movie, that's the kind of context I'm looking for. Why would God allow such horrible atrocities?

It's likely that your preacher has failed to make this point to you. No doubt a job security thing.
Anyway:
If you peruse the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, particularly ch 4 of each, you may note this exchange:

5 The devil led him (Jesus) up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”

8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.

This underscores one consequence of the rebellion in Genesis ch. 3. Satan has effectively kidnapped the human race.

So, no matter how hard we try, no matter how intelligent or well meaning our leaders, we cannot escape the evil designs of God's enemy.

But, there is hope. Note Revelation 21:3,4

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Satan's death sentence, pronounced at Genesis 3:15 will then be executed. And God will undo all his works.

 

[Stevicus]

Perfectly said, except the last sentence. I would say:

We know our lives are finite. There are no prizes or rewards with death. Just like the impermenant beauty of a shooting star traveling across the night sky.

I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. We use our own human-derived sense of aesthetics, but perhaps in a larger sense, dead flies can be just as beautiful as shooting stars.

Or maybe not...

 

[Nathan Malone]

The problem of evil is often presented as logic and reasoning for a non-benevolent God. I know it's a pretty common argument on these forums so I will be brief. I have always reconciled the problem of evil by seeing God and humans as a father child relationship of unconditional love. In the case of unconditional love, can it be said that God would necessarily allow evil due non-favoritism?

Has anyone seen the movie The Shack? Well this movie uses that argument as a man struggles with faith after losing thier youngest to a human monster. It uses a horrific example to address the problem of evil so if anyone has seen the movie, that's the kind of context I'm looking for. Why would God allow such horrible atrocities?

What is good as opposed to evil? Good, or righteousness is living the right way, as set out by God. Evil, or wickedness is living the wrong way, as set out by the devil. A good act will lead to good consequences, not just for ourselves but for the whole. An evil act will lead to bad consequences for ourselves or others.

God's laws are a reflection of himself and how he lives, adapted to man's circumstances or level of understanding (e.g. The law of Christ is higher than the law of Moses). God lives in heaven, so if we are to live there then we must abide by the rules for that kingdom. If wickedness were allowed into heaven it would not be heaven anymore.

So what about those who cannot live the law of heaven? Where do they go? It is an act of mercy that other places are organised by God for the wicked to dwell. They are wicked because they chose to be, even though God has shown them how to reach heaven. The commandments are not shackles, they are a blue print of the laws in heaven that we need to practice before we can actually live there.

God is no respecter of persons. He loves us equally no matter what we do and wants us all equally to know his will. Nevertheless, when we are disobedient or rebellious he cannot reward us for that. To be worthy of living with God we must choose it of our own free will. A parent who does not reward a child for naughty behaviour, still has love for the child.

We suffer for our own actions, and sometimes for others' actions. Sometimes we suffer from natural events that are no ones fault. Whatever happens these experiences can be drawn on for more wisdom and increase our compassion or empathy for others. Compassion, or true love cannot be developed in us without understanding hurt or loss. People suffer so they can learn humility and love, which are requisites to living with God. We need to experience suffering, loneliness, sadness, loss, so that we can understand and receive relief, love, happiness, and gratitude. Look at Jesus himself, perfect, yet he suffered more than anybody.

 

[Prestor John]

The problem of evil is often presented as logic and reasoning for a non-benevolent God. I know it's a pretty common argument on these forums so I will be brief. I have always reconciled the problem of evil by seeing God and humans as a father child relationship of unconditional love. In the case of unconditional love, can it be said that God would necessarily allow evil due non-favoritism?

Has anyone seen the movie The Shack? Well this movie uses that argument as a man struggles with faith after losing thier youngest to a human monster. It uses a horrific example to address the problem of evil so if anyone has seen the movie, that's the kind of context I'm looking for. Why would God allow such horrible atrocities?

He allows His children this brief moment of probation to prove what they actually desire in eternity.

If they desire evil, they will receive evil in eternity. If they desire good, then good.

God loves His children. For this reason He allows them to be free and to choose for themselves.

If the good are hurt by resisting evil, then all the sweeter. For they will enter into mortality with more experience than they would have had had they not done so.

 

[Grandliseur]

father child relationship of unconditional love

There is no such thing as unconditional love. It is extremely conditional.
The teaching is that the wicked shall be destroyed. The wicked are those who disobey willfully, deliberately, unrepentantly -- in committing serious sins.

 

[Theist]

If your definition of God is a being who created the entire universe, then he is responsible for every disease, every venomous creature, he have us fragile bodies that get frail as we age. If your God created everything He is responsible for all of that.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Looks as though you have a ton of complaints here, I wonder which one would lead to the unraveling of the knot.

I don't equate worshiping God with butt-licking. I have a relationship with God. Friends don't let Friends screw up the planet.